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Thread: A step into the past - 寻秦记 - by Huang Yi

  1. #761
    Senior Member tweety365's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eliza bennet View Post
    I don't agree with you, since all the homosexuals upto now in the novel are evil people. If Huang Yi was not afraid of stepping on any toes he'd make his hero gay (or at least bi).
    Or if he wants to be controversial he could at least make a good guy gay.
    True... I hadn't thought about that. So far we have characters that showed preferences to being bisexual/homosexual:

    Zhao Mu - evil monster
    King of Zhao - stupid idiot
    King of Wei - not too much info revealed yet, can't make judgment.
    Lord Longyang - perhaps he could turn out to be a likeable gay character. That would be interesting.

    Jean, update soon!

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    Quote Originally Posted by eliza bennet View Post
    Thank you so much Jean - wheeewww I sure am glad that I'm not XSL! So much treachery so much deception.




    I don't agree with you, since all the homosexuals upto now in the novel are evil people. If Huang Yi was not afraid of stepping on any toes he'd make his hero gay (or at least bi).
    Or if he wants to be controversial he could at least make a good guy gay.

    A gay wuxia hero? What a concept! I think women characters have come close but males?

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    a gay wuxia hero? wow! I think this is ridicule.. can we expect a justice from a "hero" who could not put his "thing" properly?

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    whoa... two homophobic comments--one overtly so, one less obviously so--and no response from the SPCnet community?

    (My excuse is that I haven't been online lately.)

    Why is it "ridicule" and such a wild "concept" that there could be homosexual male heroes?
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    Default PC= politicaly correct, but not necessarily true.

    Keeping in mind that the United States does not establish my moral code;
    its not homophobic if in history we have few homosexual heros.
    Also this is a global society, so it draws on values from people all around the world.
    Please feel free to bring example of gay hero, i would be interested.

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    Well, I guess if it's a gay wuxia hero, not a lot of people would want to read it, especially if it's written by Huang Yi. Look how many sex scenes XSL has gone through, if we were to read about 2 men, or an orgy of men 'doing it', I'm sure a lot straight males will be put off. The book might fare better in gay circles.

    Come to think of it, I think guys are more homophobic than gals. When talking to friends, most of my female friends are ok with gays, but the straight guys will put on a disgusted look when we talk about gay relationships. Strangely, they get excited if the topic is about lesbians.

    ok... and the end of the chapter.....



    ************************************************** **
    After Xiang Shaolong left the hall, he walked towards where Zhao Ya and the rest were residing at, knowing very well that in order to gain his trust, Prince Xinling will not restrict his activities in the manor nor send anyone to spy on him. Once he stepped into the garden, he immediately thought of Mei Canniang’s quiet little mountain valley. If he can spend the rest of his life in that place where there’s no fights, then won’t all his troubles be gone? Pride and ambition is really the downfall of many. Xiang Shaolong suddenly felt dejection and an extreme weariness about the things that has been happening around him. Especially when he thought of Lady Pingyuan, he felt that pain of being cheated and hurt. After walking past a row of old, luxuriant swaying trees, the ‘Flying Clouds Chambers’ which Zhao Ya and the rest are residing in came into view. Lanterns were lighted on the pillars and the eaves of the corridors and under the illumination of the lanterns, it can be seen that the corridors have double eaves, the roof was decorated with tiles and statues of beasts, extremely colorful and majestic. The paint and carvings on the main door was exquisite, the curtains on the windows were thick, with a soft and hazy light going through it.

    Xiang Shaolong suddenly felt lost. That feeling of a strange dream filled him again. Hai! If only it really is a dream. Even when he was facing the worst situation in Zhao, he has never felt so dejected. Just like what Prince Xinling said, even if he can escape from Wei, he’ll face death when he goes back as well, unless he can get his hands on ‘Lu Gong’s Secret Manual’. But by then those troops pursuing him will certainly include Prince Xinling’s men as well. This Prince Xinling is even more difficult to handle that the King of Wei, or else the Qins would not have suffered heavy losses under him time and again. If he really manages to unite the 3 states, for all you know he may really be able to take over Emperor Qin and become the world’s ruler. Can history really be changed?

    Xiang Shaolong lied down on Lady Ya’s couch dejectedly. Zhao Ya sat down and reached out to caress his face, asking in alarm, “Shaolong what happened to you, why do you look so bad.” Xiang Shaolong carried her up the bed and buried his head in her chest and sighed, “If I have ‘Lu Gong’s Secret Manual’ with me now, I will steal all of you out of Daliang immediately and run far, far away.” Zhao Ya’s delicate body shook a little as she cried out, “Shaolong! Can you brace yourself? Seeing you like this pains me.” She went to his ear and whispered, “An Li has got nothing to do with the order not to allow Cheng Xu and the rest into the city.” Xiang Shaolong raised his head up in surprise and looked at her, “How did you know?” Lady Ya covered her mouth and smiled, “Don’t ever think that we are totally helpless to defend, us Zhaos have spies all over the place. I even have my own people in Prince Xinling’s residence.” The look in her eyes turned icy as she continued, “This matter must be related to Prince Xinling, to deliberately isolate you and give you the feeling that there’s danger everywhere so that he and his sister can control you.”

    Xiang Shaolong perked up immediately and he sat up, his eyes gleaming, “Have you found out where ‘Lu Gong’s Secret Manual is hidden.” Lady Ya stared at him unbelievably and said, “If you obviously know that someone is coming to steal your things, will you let others find out so easily?” She then stood up and took out a scrolled painting from a cloth sack and unrolled it on the bed. It turns out to be the floor plan of Prince Xinling’s residence. Xiang Shaolong was ecstatic, “Where did you get such a good thing from?” Lady Ya smiled at him coquettishly, “Don’t forget what I’m an expert in. If I can’t even get this, how can I steal more important things?” Xiang Shaolong thought of something and asked, “If there really is a ‘Lu Gong’s Secret Manual’, why isn’t Prince Xinling starting to manufacture the equipment according to the diagrams instead, why would he be keeping it in his residence?”

    Lady Ya replied, “This involves the fight between Prince Xinling and the King of Wei. As long as Prince Xinling has not gotten his hands on the imperial throne, he will not take the secret manual out, therefore the manual must be kept in a secret location in his residence.” Xiang Shaolong sighed, “I’m afraid that even before I can find the secret manual, that conniving Prince Xinling would already have killed me.” Lady Ya suddenly extended her fair arms and covered his mouth, the soft and tender feeling shooting like electricity straight into Xiang Shaolong’s heart. She pouted, “Don’t say anything inauspicious, all right?” Xiang Shaolong sniffed in her fragrance and felt a little better. He took a close look at the map on the bed, silently committing to memory the positions of the houses in the residence. He had strict training on such matters before, so naturally he has a way of memorizing things.

    Lady Ya saw that he has regained his confidence and calmness so she happily explained to him the layout of the residence. Xiang Shaolong finally recovered from his depression and asked, “Do you have a way to make contact with Wu Zhuo and the rest?” Lady Ya said with pride, “Such a simple matter, just leave it to me!” Xiang Shaolong was silent for a moment before continuing, “Tell Wu Zhuo to try and dig a tunnel from the camp to another location. If something happens, it may very well save lives?” Lady Ya’s expression changed, “Is the situation that bad? We are after all representatives of the King of Zhao…” Xiang Shaolong interrupted her, “If you know that the King of Wei has the intention of attacking Zhao, you won’t be saying that. We’ve really made a wrong trip this time.” As he spoke, he went off the bed.

    Lady Ya pulled him and asked, “Aren’t you accompanying me?” Xiang Shaolong replied, “Prince Xinling will force me to assassinate the King of Wei anytime, time is running short, I must find the hiding place of ‘Lu Gong’s Secret Manual’.” Lady Ya was greatly startled, “There are ferocious dogs guarding Wei Wuji’s residence, he’ll certainly find out if you enter.” Xiang Shaolong laughed, “You’re the expert thief, you’ll definitely have a way to deal with ferocious dogs.”

    Lady Ya rolled her eyes at him and took out a small bottle from her bag and gave it to him, saying “Just a little of this powder on your body, the ferocious dogs will avoid you. But not only are there ferocious dogs, there are guards as well! Hai! Since I know that you’ll be risking your life, how can I sleep in peace tonight?” Xiang Shaolong took the bottle, hugged and gave her a kiss and said, “Just strip and wait for me on the bed without a worry! I guarantee that no one will be able to see me.”

    ************************************************** **************

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    Senior Member dewyloony123's Avatar
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    Thanks, Jean!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    Well, I guess if it's a gay wuxia hero, not a lot of people would want to read it, especially if it's written by Huang Yi. Look how many sex scenes XSL has gone through, if we were to read about 2 men, or an orgy of men 'doing it', I'm sure a lot straight males will be put off. The book might fare better in gay circles.

    Come to think of it, I think guys are more homophobic than gals. When talking to friends, most of my female friends are ok with gays, but the straight guys will put on a disgusted look when we talk about gay relationships. Strangely, they get excited if the topic is about lesbians.
    In my experience, that is SO true!

    @ aliderhamy: I was asking a legitimate question that nobody has yet answered fully: Why do some people on this forum find gay heroes (in story or real life) inconceivable? By the tone of your post only, it would seem you side with those who find them inconceivable. The burden of proof is still on you/others with that belief to explain why.

    It would seem you're arguing/implying:

    1) American culture has gays and others don't
    2) in history we have few gay heroes, so commenting on something that's empirically true is not homophobic.

    But that still doesn't answer my question.

    That issue aside, there are some flaws with points #1 and 2:

    1) See this list, this list, this list, and this list, although I think there's some overlap (there's also more here and here, if you're interested). There are obviously caveats to this, which I'll go into later.

    I doubt homosexuals were ever a majority in human populations (just doesn't make sense from an evolutionary point of view, right?) But clearly there have been more homosexuals throughout history and in more societies than just in San Fran and the Village from the 1960s onwards. And I recall reading studies which showed homosexual behavior in animal populations (one looked at monkeys and another at sheep); don't have the source at the moment though. Hence it really isn't so far-out to imagine that there have been gays outside of the US and before the 1960s.

    2) Several issues with this. I agree that noting an empirical fact is not wrong--for instance, mentioning that there are few women in science or in positions of power is very true and not at all sexist. But
    • This doesn't address my question
    • Historical data is hard to collect--some heroes could conceivably have been gay without letting anybody know.

      BUT it is probably reasonable to question hypothesizing about some historical figures. This is the caveat I mentioned before. For instance, I find it hard to believe anybody has enough information to claim Joan of Arc was lesbian, which some have. I guess this Dynes fellow put it best:

      "The impulse to draw up extensive biographical lists of notable homosexuals of the past began with the 19th century homosexual scholars in German-speaking countries. Parallel tendencies occur with scholars representing other minority groups, where such lists seem to function to provide historical witness of the collective worth of an ostracized group. This "hall of fame" approach has recently been criticized as skewing homosexual and lesbian history towards an unrepresentative elite, effacing historical variety and class differences. The search for famous homosexuals also provokes a largely fruitless series of debates over whether figures of the past, such as Socrates or Caesar, were truly homosexual."
      (source: http://users.cybercity.dk/~dko12530/queerhis.htm)
    • This somewhat depends on your definition of hero--military or political or... (I dunno). I was thinking more in terms of literary heroes when this discussion started but sure, we can expand the discussion to other heroes. If you're thinking military--see those long lists above. If you don't want to go through those lists again, you can see this


    Wow... never expected I would be defending gay rights on an online forum... btw where's Candide? Candide's a lot better at discussion of sexual freedom...
    Last edited by dewyloony123; 03-23-08 at 09:52 PM.
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  8. #768
    Senior Member wandering's Avatar
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    if you're looking for gay heroes who are famous and historical...
    then look at alexander the great

    and for achievement..he conquered most of the known world at the time...you don't get more heroic than that i guess
    ******************************************
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    Last updated: 02/04/2008
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    well said dewlyloony, completely agree. and thanks for taking the time to compile the information! interesting stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aliderhamy View Post
    Keeping in mind that the United States does not establish my moral code;
    its not homophobic if in history we have few homosexual heros.
    Also this is a global society, so it draws on values from people all around the world.
    Please feel free to bring example of gay hero, i would be interested.
    Heh, of course it's homophobic. Just because everyone throughout history goes "yuck" the moment they imagine the idea of gay heroes doesn't make it not homophobic.

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    personal opinion:

    my values tell me that same sex relationships of a sexual kind.. (ie gays).. should be looked down upon..

    i do not push my opinions on to others, yet others choose to call me homophobic. I find gay heros not to my taste.. is that a problem?

    same way people find nudity in public to be immoral. I find homosexual relationships to be immoral..

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    Come to think of it, I think guys are more homophobic than gals. When talking to friends, most of my female friends are ok with gays, but the straight guys will put on a disgusted look when we talk about gay relationships. Strangely, they get excited if the topic is about lesbians.
    This is my experience too!

    As for me, I don't think the sexual preference of someone is one of the priorities in forming my opinion on that person (as long as it is between consenting adults anyway).

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    I don't have much in terms of historical backup but the section in the story that:

    Prince Xinling said, “Lord Long Yang is one of the 3 most famous swordsmen in the state of Wei. He is intelligent and cunning, and certainly not easy to deal with.”

    ...does not make me feel like Lord Long Yang will be a nasty villain but the progress of the story seems that he might become one of XSL's admirers.

    my guess only

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    Thanks, efflix! Glad you found it interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by little Fish View Post
    personal opinion:

    my values tell me that same sex relationships of a sexual kind.. (ie gays).. should be looked down upon..

    i do not push my opinions on to others, yet others choose to call me homophobic. I find gay heros not to my taste.. is that a problem?

    same way people find nudity in public to be immoral. I find homosexual relationships to be immoral..
    Nobody's pushing their opinions on you; we're all entitled to our opinions. It's just that your point of view, as you have described it, fits the definition of homophobia. If you don't believe me, check out the Merriam-Webster dictionary, which as far as I can tell is still a well-functioning dictionary.

    I have to give you kudos, though: neither bharata nor KChill have come out (no pun intended) with justifications for why they find gay heroes inconceivable. At least you gave a justification: you think gays are immoral, deserving of contempt, and "not to your taste" (whatever that means).

    As to whether that's a problem--that's a point that's beyond the scope of the discussion. It would go back to age-old questions like:

    1. What is the basis of morality? Can it be captured by utilitarianism? The categorical imperative? Confucianism? Taoism? Existentialism? Western Judeo-Christian values? A mix of many other extant philosophies? (just threw in as many as I could think of at the moment) Most personal philosophies can be captured by existing philosophies.
    2. Even if you believe in moral absolutism, how do you know you're morally right, without, say, divine affirmation? What makes you think you can judge other people absolutely? What makes you think they can't do the same to you--who would be right?
    3. What do you do when your personal beliefs don't match those of others?
    4. What is the measure of a human? Does one trait damn them to hell? And again--how do you know you're right?

    And that's just a taster. There's probably more. Can you answer these questions, in your heart of hearts? If your life depended on it? If you were facing your Maker? (if you believe in a Maker)
    Last edited by dewyloony123; 03-24-08 at 09:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by smurf120 View Post
    I don't have much in terms of historical backup but the section in the story that:

    Prince Xinling said, “Lord Long Yang is one of the 3 most famous swordsmen in the state of Wei. He is intelligent and cunning, and certainly not easy to deal with.”

    ...does not make me feel like Lord Long Yang will be a nasty villain but the progress of the story seems that he might become one of XSL's admirers.

    my guess only
    LOL, everybody loves XSL, huh?
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    actually, homosexuality is only frowned on in recent centuries. It was the perfect norm during ancient greek times, and is even a symbol of status, to be able to have young male lovers. IIRC, it was only when christianity spread to greece that it slowly became a 'sin'. Come to think of it, in ancient greece, even prostitution was a proper job.

    And I remember reading somewhere, in ancient China, it's common for emperors to have male and female lovers. And the officials don't care as long as it doesn't interfere in his running of the empire.

    Anyway, back to the story..... new chapter!

    ************************************************** *

    Book 3 Chap 10 - Meeting Long Yang


    Xiang Shaolong returned to his room and after dismissing the 4 pretty maids from their duties and ministrations, he changed into his black suit and carried his tools. He was about to slip out from the window when a maid called out, “Lady Pingyuan arrives.”

    Footsteps were heard and Lady Pingyuan is already at the door.

    There was no time for Xiang Shaolong to remove his outfit so in his haste he just grabbed an outer robe and draped it on. By then Lady Pingyuan has already entered the room.

    Lady Pingyuan closed the door, leaned against it and looked at him with a hidden smile.

    Xiang Shaolong was secretly lamenting, as soon as she touches him, she’ll find out immediately about the tools he had on him and with her intelligence, of course she’ll know what he’s trying to do.

    But if he does not hug and kiss her, it would be a deviate from his normal reaction and it will arouse her suspicions.

    What should he do?

    He suddenly had an idea.

    Xiang Shaolong sat back on the couch, patting on the bed next to him and said with an ulterior motive, “Beauty! Come! This time there will be no one who can disturb us.”

    Lady Pingyuan blushed and pouted, “Have you forgotten that I’m about to be married?”

    Xiang Shaolong’s ploy was working and he replied, “I thought you are the one who forgot, that’s why you came to my room to look for me. Besides, didn’t Lady ask me to give you a child? If you don’t climb up my bed, how am I supposed to impregnate you?”

    Lady Pingyuan replied calmly, “Will you be a little patient? My wedding will be held next spring, and we’ll have all the fun we want the month before my wedding so that person will not suspect that I’m not expecting his son at all.”

    Xiang Shaolong expected her to say this, because it’s a good excuse for her to reject him and at the same time appease him so that he will not suspect that she’s plotting against him.

    If he does not come up with a good plan 2 months later, he will soon be dead.

    This woman is so vicious!

    He has never hated a woman so much, especially when she’s so mature and seductive and her status so esteemed.

    He stood up and walked towards her, until he was so close he’s almost touching her bosom. He reached out, grabbed her soft shoulders and kissed her lips.

    Lady Pingyuan’s reaction was sizzling, her delicate body writhing in excitement but she was unable to touch Xiang Shaolong’s body and find out about his secret.

    After a long moment, the 2 lips parted.

    The 2 of them exchanged looks, their hands held together, panting.

    Lady Pingyuan could not take the flirtation any further and panted, “Shaolong! Hug me!”

    Xiang Shaolong shook his head and said with a smile, “Unless you are willing to go to Mount Wu with me, or else I will not touch any other part of your body except for your dainty lips.”

    Lady Pingyuan was baffled, “What is ‘go to Mount Wu’?”

    It was only then that Xiang Shaolong remembered that this wonderful term is not being used during this era yet, so he made up a story, “Mount Wu is a huge mountain near my hometown. Legend has it that when men goes there, they will have intimate fun with the fairies in the mountain, so the term go to Mount Wu means going to bed and having fun, does Lady understand now?”

    Lady Pingyuan’s bright eyes revealed her dilemma and Xiang Shaolong was shocked, afraid that she will change her mind so he hurriedly ask, “Why has Lady come to look for me?”

    Lady Pingyuan regained her senses and pouted, “Do I need to have a reason to look for you?”

    Xiang Shaolong had an idea and took the risk, “Lady better remind Prince Xinling that Lady Ya seems very confident of stealing Lu Gong’s Secret Manual, I think she already knows where the manual is hidden.”

    Lady Pingyuan’s pretty face turned icy as she said, “That s.lut doesn’t even know she’s at death’s door. No matter how capable she is, she can forget about even touching the secret manual.”

    Xiang Shaolong queried, “Are you planning to kill her?”

    ************************************************** *******

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    Well if you were implying that I was one of the homophobes, I'm far from it? I was simply saying that it was an interesting idea for a wuxia novel. However, after Jean put the image in my head of a gay XSL, I'm agree totally with her......I'm against it. Maybe I could deal with reading about them holding hands but as for the Huang Yi level of detail, HECK NO! Nothing phobic about it.

    Thanks as always Jean.
    Last edited by KChill; 03-24-08 at 09:53 PM.

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    Whoa! So much plotting and scheming! I love it. Jean, you're the only one that makes me dread the weekend . But today is only Monday

    I knew that Lady Pingyuan was no good. Like I said, XSL better watch his back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    actually, homosexuality is only frowned on in recent centuries. It was the perfect norm during ancient greek times, and is even a symbol of status, to be able to have young male lovers. IIRC, it was only when christianity spread to greece that it slowly became a 'sin'. Come to think of it, in ancient greece, even prostitution was a proper job.
    Yeah, this reminds me of the Sacred Band of Thebes.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes

    If you watched "300" and thought that the Spartans were badasses, well, the Sacred Band kicked the Spartans' asses and they were all homosexuals.

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    Senior Member eliza bennet's Avatar
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    It must be tiring to be on guard all the time, poor XSL!

    Jean, thank you so much

    I like it how by arguing amicably we are learning new things too!

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