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Thread: Paper Swordsmen

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    Member jayjenxi's Avatar
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    Default Paper Swordsmen

    I was in the bookstore today and I picked up an interesting read. It's entitled Paper Swordsmen - Jin Yong and the Modern Chinese Martial Arts Novel, written by John Christopher Hamm.

    I found the book on Amazon, in case any of you are interested to check it out.


    The author noted that "The English Titles used (with one exception) are likewise those supplied in the Ming Ho edition."

    He was referring to the Ming Ho Collected Works of Jin Yong.

    Out of curiosity, I checked the titles of the novels used and here are my findings:

    Book and Sword, Gratitude and Revenge
    The Sword Stained with Royal Blood
    The Eagle-Shooting Heroes
    The Giant Eagle and its Companion
    Flying Fox on Snowy Mountain
    Fox Volant of the Snowy Mountain
    The White Horse Neighs in the Western Wind
    Mandarin Duck blades
    The Young Flying Fox
    The Heaven Sword and the Dragon Sabre
    A Deadly Secret
    The Demi-Gods and Semi-Devils
    Ode to Gallantry
    Sword of the Yue Maiden
    Illustrations of the Thirty-three Swordsmen
    The Smiling, Proud Wanderer
    The Duke of the Mount Deer


    I cringed at some of the translated book titles

    I have yet to read more and will post more when I do. If anyone's read this book feel free to share.

    Here's the teaser:

    "The martial arts novel is one of the most distinctive and widely read forms of modern Chinese fiction. It is popular not only within Chinese-language communities but in translation throughout east Asia and in cinematic and other adaptations throughout the world. In Paper Swordsmen, John Christopher Hamm offers the first in-depth English-language study of this fascinating and influential genre, focusing on the work of its undisputed twentieth-century master, Jin Yong."

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    Which titles didn't you like? They seemed OK to me.

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    most the titles sound okay to me

    though "mandrin duck swords" is a bit...too literal?? sounds like some kind of dish
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 10-09-07 at 02:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jayjenxi
    I was in the bookstore today and I picked up an interesting read. It's entitled Paper Swordsmen - Jin Yong and the Modern Chinese Martial Arts Novel, written by John Christopher Hamm.
    I've read that. It's probably the first book on Jinology that's been published in the English language, and it generally takes a 'media studies' approach to Jinyong. I'm not a huge fan of that approach, with all its academic buzzwords. I was hoping more for some serious literary analysis of JY's canonical texts, and was mildly disappointed. There are some good insights in the book, but Hamm (the author) is more of a media man than a literature man, so the analysis isn't quite first-rate; also, he skips over Yi Tian Tu Long Ji and Tian Long Ba Bu.

    Hamm is noticeably reticent on the issue of what he really thinks about Jinyong as a writer. I suspect he's a bit sceptical.

    As for the titles, they've always been translated in an appallingly bad manner. For instance, people shouldn't really persist in using names like "Legend of the Condor Heroes", "Return of the Condor Heroes" and "Smiling, Proud Wanderer" because (in my opinion) those are inaccurate, idiotic and tacky titles created in a sloppy and ignorant fashion. But "The Giant Eagle and its Companion" is probably even worse.

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    Senior Member junzi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by owbjhx View Post
    As for the titles, they've always been translated in an appallingly bad manner. For instance, people shouldn't really persist in using names like "Legend of the Condor Heroes", "Return of the Condor Heroes" and "Smiling, Proud Wanderer" because (in my opinion) those are inaccurate, idiotic and tacky titles created in a sloppy and ignorant fashion. But "The Giant Eagle and its Companion" is probably even worse.
    What would you suggest then?

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    Senior Member shenlong's Avatar
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    Oh wow, a bunch of those titles are translated surprisingly well, and then there are the usual ones XD
    秋风清,秋风明;落叶聚还散,寒鸦栖复惊。相思相见知何日,此时此夜难为情

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    Well, smiling proud wanderer is a poor translation of the title. State of Divinity is the better translation. Mandarin Ducks Blades is too funny to even comment on. Deer and the Cauldron would also be a better translation.

    The Sword Stained with Royal Blood is also not a good translation. Nothing mentioned about royalty in the title.

    But, since we've all been accustomed to the translations such as ROCH and LOCH, it's not a big deal.
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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Perhaps 碧血剑 is called "Sword Stained with Royal Blood" because someone mistake 碧 for 陛? Alternately, 碧 can refer to jade, which is traditionally an imperial symbol, although I find the former more likely.

    That also would explain the translation of 鹿鼎记 as "Duke of Mount Deer"; perhaps the translator confused 鼎 with 顶.

    All in all, I suspect poor translation to be the culprit.

    State of Divinity is a translation that I rather do not like.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 11-02-07 at 08:40 PM.
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    The SOD translation is like the DGSD one. Ignores the Chinese words used but captures the spirit of the title. Translating DGSD as Eight Parts of the Dragon would technically be correct but misses the meaning. "Smiling Proud Wanderer" doesn't even translate the title.

    Xiao Ao Jiao Hu (I am at school now, can't type chinese) is an idiom that means to be above all strife, all stress, all desires of the mundane world, to enjoy life as one pleases. To translate it as "Laughing (or Smiling) at the World" would be better than SPW.

    State of Divinity captures the spirit. To be in a state of divinity is to be above the mundane world. This translation is one of the rare instances that TVB actually did something exceptionally well.

    The word Bi in Bi Xie Jian, IMO, is just used for emphasis, much like "dan xin" in tie xie dan xin. Can't really name the book "hong xie jian" or "tie xie jian" or something like that.
    Last edited by flyingfox2002; 11-02-07 at 09:55 PM.
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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Yes, I prefer 'Laughing Proudly at the World'. State of Divinity...I just don't like it. It isn't a translation at all, even if it, to a certain extent, captures the spirit...but even then, the spirit isn't clearly defined but nebulous.
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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Tian Long Ba Bu isn't Eight Parts of the Dragon. That's technically wrong.

    The literal, technically correct translation is "The Eight Humanoid Species led by Celestial and Dragon". Those species are mentioned in the Buddhist Lotus Sutra. They are humanoid creatures who frequently attend the lectures given by the Supreme Buddha and hence obtain some divine attributes, but aren't true divine beings or godlike. The leaders of those are Celestial and Dragon, thus the name. The eight species are:

    1. Celestial is like a human being, but taller and bigger, lives longer and happier, however has to endure a very painful death with 5 omens: decomposed clothing, decaying head flower, smelly and dirty body, sweaty armpits and psychomotor agitation.

    2. Dragon is the dragon king, but not quite like the Chinese dragon, and more like a big snake with no limb.

    3. Yaksha (in Buddhism) is the third one, which literally means a divinity that can eat demons. There are three types: one that lives on earth, one in heaven and one in the netherworld. They are smart and elegant beings who are protectors of living things. However, due to the depiction in Journey To The West, Yaksha is mistakenly used as an alternate word for demon.

    4. Enigma (don't know the Hindu word for it, but that's what it means) are the musicians that serve Celestial, who don't eat meat and don't drink alcohol, but live by the smell of incense, and have a pleasant body fragrance. The name comes from the immeasurable vastness of music and fragrance.

    5. A-Tu-La (that's a Sino Viet name, don't know the Hindu one) is a special type of Divinity: the males are ugly as sin while the females are very beautiful. They often battle with Celestial as one side has good food and the other has beautiful females. They represent greed and envy in Buddhism.

    6. Golden-Winged Eagle is a bird species that also exists in Chinese myths (in which Yue Fei is one that was reborn as a human). They love to hunt and eat dragons and everyday they must catch either one dragon king or 500 baby dragons. Because they eat too many dragons, the accumulated venom burns their bodies to ashes and only leaves a blue heart.

    7. Horned Human is a species resembling human beings the most, but with horns , and are great at singing and dancing. They entertain Celestial.

    8. Divine Snake is a species with human body but snake head, and is much much bigger than a man.

    The translation "Demi-Gods and Semi-Devils" while not referring to the 8 species is spot on with the literal meaning of the title as well as its spirit. You can see the TLBB main characters among those 8 species.
    Last edited by Candide; 11-02-07 at 11:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Yes, I prefer 'Laughing Proudly at the World'. State of Divinity...I just don't like it. It isn't a translation at all, even if it, to a certain extent, captures the spirit...but even then, the spirit isn't clearly defined but nebulous.
    I concur. Don't like "State of Divinity". Anything with divinity reminds me of cranky and grumpy deities in Journey To The West. Seriously though, "state of divinity" is too much like enlightenment, which IMO is a state above what LHC was supposedly at - a state of carefreeness, not giving a flying stuff about politics and power. When he got older and lost interest in alcohol and sex, only then I think he would reach SOD.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Bah, I forgot that Wuxiapedia already has the translation of TLBB foreword, which has the explanation of the eight species: http://wuxiapedia.com/novels/jin_yon...evils/foreword
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    Tian Long Ba Bu isn't Eight Parts of the Dragon. That's technically wrong.

    The literal, technically correct translation is "The Eight Humanoid Species led by Celestial and Dragon". Those species are mentioned in the Buddhist Lotus Sutra. They are humanoid creatures who frequently attend the lectures given by the Supreme Buddha and hence obtain some divine attributes, but aren't true divine beings or godlike. The leaders of those are Celestial and Dragon, thus the name. The eight species are:

    1. Celestial is like a human being, but taller and bigger, lives longer and happier, however has to endure a very painful death with 5 omens: decomposed clothing, decaying head flower, smelly and dirty body, sweaty armpits and psychomotor agitation.

    2. Dragon is the dragon king, but not quite like the Chinese dragon, and more like a big snake with no limb.

    3. Yaksha (in Buddhism) is the third one, which literally means a divinity that can eat demons. There are three types: one that lives on earth, one in heaven and one in the netherworld. They are smart and elegant beings who are protectors of living things. However, due to the depiction in Journey To The West, Yaksha is mistakenly used as an alternate word for demon.

    4. Enigma (don't know the Hindu word for it, but that's what it means) are the musicians that serve Celestial, who don't eat meat and don't drink alcohol, but live by the smell of incense, and have a pleasant body fragrance. The name comes from the immeasurable vastness of music and fragrance.

    5. A-Tu-La (that's a Sino Viet name, don't know the Hindu one) is a special type of Divinity: the males are ugly as sin while the females are very beautiful. They often battle with Celestial as one side has good food and the other has beautiful females. They represent greed and envy in Buddhism.

    6. Golden-Winged Eagle is a bird species that also exists in Chinese myths (in which Yue Fei is one that was reborn as a human). They love to hunt and eat dragons and everyday they must catch either one dragon king or 500 baby dragons. Because they eat too many dragons, the accumulated venom burns their bodies to ashes and only leaves a blue heart.

    7. Horned Human is a species resembling human beings the most, but with horns , and are great at singing and dancing. They entertain Celestial.

    8. Divine Snake is a species with human body but snake head, and is much much bigger than a man.

    The translation "Demi-Gods and Semi-Devils" while not referring to the 8 species is spot on with the literal meaning of the title as well as its spirit. You can see the TLBB main characters among those 8 species.
    I know. I was saying that if you simply translated the Chinese words literally into English, then the 4 words mean Eight Parts of the Dragon.
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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Perhaps 碧血剑 is called "Sword Stained with Royal Blood" because someone mistake 碧 for 陛? Alternately, 碧 can refer to jade, which is traditionally an imperial symbol, although I find the former more likely.

    That also would explain the translation of 鹿鼎记 as "Duke of Mount Deer"; perhaps the translator confused 鼎 with 顶.
    The "Lu Ding" in "Lu Ding Ji" refers to Lu Ding Shan, or Mount Lu Ding (Deer?) where the Qing invaders stored the wealth they pillaged when they invaded China. One of the main plots of Lu Ding Ji involved the recovery of a map which would lead the finder to the treasure trove, and it was identified as being hidden in Lu Ding Shan towards the end. Maybe that's why "Lu Ding" in the title, when taken in context, is translated as Mount Deer. Not sure why the word "Duke" is in there.. it should be the "Record of Mount Deer" or something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    Not sure why the word "Duke" is in there..
    Wei Xiaobao's highest title under Kangxi is Duke of Mount Deer.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    I thought I'll update you guys.

    The writing style is very academic. It's a pain to read it. A lot of passive writing and extremely long sentences.

    The good thing about the book is that the author did a lot of research. He provides insight on how the environment influenced Jing Yong's works.

    Bittersweet eh? :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by jayjenxi
    The writing style is very academic. It's a pain to read it. A lot of passive writing and extremely long sentences.

    The good thing about the book is that the author did a lot of research. He provides insight on how the environment influenced Jing Yong's works.
    Well, the book's an academic text aimed at students/researchers in the media studies field, so it has all the jargon and posturing that that entails. The topic is Jinyong, but the audience ain't the typical JY fan (particularly the fight-scene-fetishist-type JY fan). It's more about the circumstances in which JY wrote and published his works, rather than the actual works themselves. From that point of view, it's not a bad effort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    The "Lu Ding" in "Lu Ding Ji" refers to Lu Ding Shan, or Mount Lu Ding (Deer?) where the Qing invaders stored the wealth they pillaged when they invaded China. One of the main plots of Lu Ding Ji involved the recovery of a map which would lead the finder to the treasure trove, and it was identified as being hidden in Lu Ding Shan towards the end. Maybe that's why "Lu Ding" in the title, when taken in context, is translated as Mount Deer. Not sure why the word "Duke" is in there.. it should be the "Record of Mount Deer" or something.
    I've always thought of the deer and cauldron as referring to the introductory stories in the beginning of the novel. I forget the exact message of those stories but it has something to do with conquering lands and some stuff about getting rid of those in your way in your conquests.
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