Level of YLQ?

[AnhHung]

The last edition said that YLQ mastered the full 18 dragon palms. Now, does that make him a great?

Old nine finger was considered as a great with his dragon palms and dog beating stick. GJ with his dragon palms and 9 yin. But could YLQ with dragon palm, dog beating stick and QZ/SBT MA be considered as a great?

[PJ]

Not necessarily a Great. For all we know, Pre-DGSD Beggar's Union Chief Wang Jiantong also mastered all 18 palms, and he could not even compete with Xiao Yuanshan's tiniest finger. But I'm pretty sure Yelu Qi, after having mastered all 18 palms, became better than Shi Huolong or Jie Feng.

[AnhHung]

So what is special about North Beggar that make him a great and not YLQ? I mean on paper, YLQ has the more impressive MA history. But I admit that I dont know all of North Beggars MA set.

Is it because North Beggar has more internal power or is more gifted?

[Ren Wo Xing]

Not necessarily a Great. For all we know, Pre-DGSD Beggar's Union Chief Wang Jiantong also mastered all 18 palms, and he could not even compete with Xiao Yuanshan's tiniest finger. But I'm pretty sure Yelu Qi, after having mastered all 18 palms, became better than Shi Huolong or Jie Feng.

Are you sure about that?

Jie Feng was able to write on wood with relative ease at Shaolin in a conversation with Fangzheng. Qiu Chuji's comment that such a feat would be difficult even for someone like Yideng may or may not be true, but it does indicate that Jie Feng's martial arts ability was considerably above that of Qiu Chuji.

[PJ]

Are you sure about that?

Jie Feng was able to write on wood with relative ease at Shaolin in a conversation with Fangzheng. Qiu Chuji's comment that such a feat would be difficult even for someone like Yideng may or may not be true, but it does indicate that Jie Feng's martial arts ability was considerably above that of Qiu Chuji.

This one is a bit tricky I suppose. For sure, Jie Feng wasn't able to master all 18 palms of XL18Z (it said Yelu Qi was the last person to fulfill that feat). But we don't even know if XL18Z still existed in SPW's time. Maybe Jie Feng didn't know XL18Z at all, instead he knew some other fancy martial arts, which may or may not be on par with Yelu Qi's full XL18Z.

IF eventually Yelu Qi with all 18 palms advanced to somewhere around the level of a LOCH Great, then I'd consider that to be higher than Jie Feng (Yideng "may not" be able to write on wood, by association he "may" be able to write on wood also ).

[Ren Wo Xing]

IF eventually Yelu Qi with all 18 palms advanced to somewhere around the level of a LOCH Great, then I'd consider that to be higher than Jie Feng (Yideng "may not" be able to write on wood, by association he "may" be able to write on wood also ).

I'd probably agree with that. The issue really is that we know so little about Jie Feng; he never appears in the novel before or after that I believe, so all we have to judge him by is that one feat.

Although on the other hand, Jie Feng isn't amongst the people that RWX respects, which indicates that his level is almost definitely beneath that of DFBB, Fangzheng, Chong Xu, and Feng Qingyang. But perhaps he is amongst the three and a half that RWX doesn't respect? Having illegitimate children that he doesn't formally admit to having isn't something that I would imagine would inspire RWX's respect.

[tape]

I'm pretty sure there's a passage that definitely places Jie Feng in a lower tier than them. Still, he seems pretty powerful.

[kyss of the sword]

guo jing mastered all eighteen moves before he went to tao hua island. he was still slightly below the level of oyang ke and the quezhen top three elders at that time. mastering the moves requires being able to perform all 18 moves as they are meant to be used. guo jing improved to great level after after tao hua island. shi huolong mastered only 14 moves but he was skilled enough to match a few moves with cheng kun, but cheng kun was only about 1/3 great level. YLQ could be around cheng kun level only even after mastering HL18Z. he was already at the same level as the quezhen elders.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Actually, he was considerably above the level of Ouyang Ke at the time he went to Tao Hua Dao.

[KJ]

guo jing mastered all eighteen moves before he went to tao hua island. he was still slightly below the level of oyang ke and the quezhen top three elders at that time. mastering the moves requires being able to perform all 18 moves as they are meant to be used. guo jing improved to great level after after tao hua island. shi huolong mastered only 14 moves but he was skilled enough to match a few moves with cheng kun, but cheng kun was only about 1/3 great level. YLQ could be around cheng kun level only even after mastering HL18Z. he was already at the same level as the quezhen elders.

He should be above OYK's level at Peach Blossum Island. He was able to take on OYF better than OYK did against H7G, without resorting to trickery.

[Patudo]

Prior to visiting the Peach Blossom Island Guo Jing's martial arts once he had learned all 18 palms were only slightly inferior to Ouyang Ke's; Ouyang Ke needed to employ his uncle's advanced technique "Spirit Snake Fist" to defeat him (Chapter 15 book 2). At that point Guo Jing had only just learned the 18 palms however, so with more practice and more internal energy cultivation (he was probably a little behind in this department at that point) he might well have achieved parity with Ouyang Ke. After he met Zhou Botong however he received three great improvements (1) Vacant Fist (2) Mutual Hands combat and (3) Jiuyin Manual. He's significantly superior to Ouyang Ke from this point on.

Actually Yelu Qi's martial arts development was quite similar to Guo Jing's. Yelu's inner energy foundation was Quanzhen taught by Zhou Botong (unsure whether Zhou also imparted Jiuyin internal energy elements which were said to be similar to Quanzhen though more advanced - but probably unlikely based on Yelu's apparent level of power when he first appears) and he was also taught the Vacant Fist (which he used against Huo Du). He then learns the 18 palms and the Dog Beating Stick from his parents-in-law. What he doesn't have (or at least it isn't stated) is Jiuyin. Yelu is a good martial artist, when he first shows up he's better than Yang Guo, whom we know is something of a prodigy. I think it's well within reason to believe that by the time he got to Hong Qigong's or Ouyang Feng's age (when they first appear in LOCH) his martial arts could be comparable.

[AnhHung]

So YLQ is a great in the making. Pitty that he doesnt have the protagonist luck and fortune or else he would have reach greathood earlier.

[Western Eccentric]

Prior to visiting the Peach Blossom Island Guo Jing's martial arts once he had learned all 18 palms were only slightly inferior to Ouyang Ke's; Ouyang Ke needed to employ his uncle's advanced technique "Spirit Snake Fist" to defeat him (Chapter 15 book 2). At that point Guo Jing had only just learned the 18 palms however, so with more practice and more internal energy cultivation (he was probably a little behind in this department at that point) he might well have achieved parity with Ouyang Ke. After he met Zhou Botong however he received three great improvements (1) Vacant Fist (2) Mutual Hands combat and (3) Jiuyin Manual. He's significantly superior to Ouyang Ke from this point on.

Actually Yelu Qi's martial arts development was quite similar to Guo Jing's. Yelu's inner energy foundation was Quanzhen taught by Zhou Botong (unsure whether Zhou also imparted Jiuyin internal energy elements which were said to be similar to Quanzhen though more advanced - but probably unlikely based on Yelu's apparent level of power when he first appears) and he was also taught the Vacant Fist (which he used against Huo Du). He then learns the 18 palms and the Dog Beating Stick from his parents-in-law. What he doesn't have (or at least it isn't stated) is Jiuyin. Yelu is a good martial artist, when he first shows up he's better than Yang Guo, whom we know is something of a prodigy. I think it's well within reason to believe that by the time he got to Hong Qigong's or Ouyang Feng's age (when they first appear in LOCH) his martial arts could be comparable.

Not true YLQ was "better" than YG when they 1st met not because his talent "comparable" with YG but due to the fact that he's older than YG and have learn martial art longer than YG under great master..
YLQ is good but he's not "excellent" compare with YG in terms of talent

[hyoyatika]

When did he mastered the full 18 dragon palms? YLQ was fighting to a draw against Huo Du, taking into consideration that Huo Du was hiding his true skills. When Huo Du went all out, YLQ was defeated. Perhaps he had great tutelage and access but he simply lacked talent.

[pannonian]

When did he mastered the full 18 dragon palms? YLQ was fighting to a draw against Huo Du, taking into consideration that Huo Du was hiding his true skills. When Huo Du went all out, YLQ was defeated. Perhaps he had great tutelage and access but he simply lacked talent.

Yelu Qi was using Vacant Fists during the tourney to conserve energy. He hadn't gone all out against Huo Du, but already had the upper hand which caused Huo Du to extinguish the lights. As far as Yelu Qi was concerned, the fight against He Shiwo was a tourney fight rather than one of life and death.

[Western Eccentric]

YLQ admit he couldn't beat Huodu even in "fair fight"..

[hyoyatika]

Yelu Qi was using Vacant Fists during the tourney to conserve energy. He hadn't gone all out against Huo Du, but already had the upper hand which caused Huo Du to extinguish the lights. As far as Yelu Qi was concerned, the fight against He Shiwo was a tourney fight rather than one of life and death.

Vacant Fists is not inferior to Dragon Palms. He didn't go all out against Huo Du but neither was Huo Du. He subsequently admitted that if they fought to the death, he can't win.

[CC]

I would hate that mastering the same X art would make A and B almost equal.

The person using the art should count for more.

e.g. Wang Jiantong with 18 palms likely wouldnt last 10 strokes with pre-shaolin theft Xiao Yuanshan.

QCJ and Sun Bu'er for all we know learnt the same skills but look at the difference in level.

[pannonian]

Vacant Fists is not inferior to Dragon Palms. He didn't go all out against Huo Du but neither was Huo Du. He subsequently admitted that if they fought to the death, he can't win.

It was in the immediate aftermath of his defeat by He Shiwo. Yelu Qi wasn't going to be a bad loser like his wife and accuse He Shiwo of cheating. I suspect he might have a different tune after He Shiwo's unmasking as Huo Du.

[hyoyatika]

It was in the immediate aftermath of his defeat by He Shiwo. Yelu Qi wasn't going to be a bad loser like his wife and accuse He Shiwo of cheating. I suspect he might have a different tune after He Shiwo's unmasking as Huo Du.

I beg to differ. A lot was at stake. And if it was merely because of cheating, I can see YLQ saying something like "He xiong, bu ru wo men lai yi chang gong pin de zheng dou, ru he?" He was defeated. No matter how you spin it, he lost. It isn't that bad though since Huo Du was a generation above him (I think).