Gong Nam 7 Freaks and Genghis Khan

[Ken Cheng]

The Gong Nam 7 Freaks went to Mongolia in LOCH to train young Gwok Jing in the martial arts, not to have dealings of any sort with Mongol leader Genghis Khan. Training Gwok Jing, however, inevitably meant associating to some extent with the Khan considering Gwok Jing's own close ties with the Mongolian leadership. Did Genghis Khan see any potential value in having the Gong Nam 7 Freaks as allies (at that point, the Mongol Empire lacked any wulin martial artists on its side)? Were the Freaks at all disposed to helping the Khan (seeing that at that point, Mongolia and the Sung Kingdom were not at war with one another, and in fact would soon be allies in the war against the Jin Empire)?

[AnhHung]

Genghis Khan saw that the Freaks had great skills that none of his generals or himself could macht, but he saw that these skills didnt necessary apply well on the battle field. He sendt his son TL to train with them, but stress that he (TL) should consentrate on archery, riding and other war skills.

Genghis Khan valued war skills ahead of MA, therefore the Freaks werent big help. This mean that the Freaks didnt really have much to do with Genghis Khan. But the Freaks did help Genghis Khan when he were ambusesed by his sworn brothers. Although they helped because GJ was with him and they didnt want GJ to get killed.

[Ken Cheng]

Genghis Khan saw that the Freaks had great skills that none of his generals or himself could macht, but he saw that these skills didnt necessary apply well on the battle field. He sendt his son TL to train with them, but stress that he (TL) should consentrate on archery, riding and other war skills.

Genghis Khan valued war skills ahead of MA, therefore the Freaks werent big help. This mean that the Freaks didnt really have much to do with Genghis Khan. But the Freaks did help Genghis Khan when he were ambusesed by his sworn brothers. Although they helped because GJ was with him and they didnt want GJ to get killed.

Two generations later, however, Genghis' descendants valued martial arts skills much more...as we saw in ROCH, Kublai Khan hired in such martial artists as the Golden Wheel Monk, Wan Hak Sai, Siu Seung Tze, and Lui Mor Singh.

The Mongols really upgraded drastically in this department between LOCH and ROCH.

[Ken Cheng]

I think that Genghis Khan's views towards the relative value of powerful martial artists in military campaigns probably changed after the Battle of Samarkand. Naturally, one can't hope to assemble a few dozen martial artists, throw them onto a conventional battlefield, and hope that they can win a war slugging it out with thousands upon thousands of infantrymen, cavalrymen, and archers, but the clever strategic use of an elite martial artist at a key juncture can turn the tide of battle. Samarkand finally fell to the Mongols (in LOCH) after Wong Yung devised the silken parachute/hang glider for Gwok Jing to use to penetrate the fortress city's defenses. After that, it was up to Gwok Jing's prowess as a martial artist to create enough of a diversion within the city to allow Genghis' troops to successfully penetrate the fortress from the outside.

[Ren Wo Xing]

I think that Genghis Khan's views towards the relative value of powerful martial artists in military campaigns probably changed after the Battle of Samarkand. Naturally, one can't hope to assemble a few dozen martial artists, throw them onto a conventional battlefield, and hope that they can win a war slugging it out with thousands upon thousands of infantrymen, cavalrymen, and archers, but the clever strategic use of an elite martial artist at a key juncture can turn the tide of battle. Samarkand finally fell to the Mongols (in LOCH) after Wong Yung devised the silken parachute/hang glider for Gwok Jing to use to penetrate the fortress city's defenses. After that, it was up to Gwok Jing's prowess as a martial artist to create enough of a diversion within the city to allow Genghis troops to successfully penetrate the fortress from the outside.

Actually, that's not quite true. It wasn't Guo Jing alone who penetrated Samarkand; his entire division was converted into paratroopers.

[pannonian]

Actually, that's not quite true. It wasn't Guo Jing alone who penetrated Samarkand; his entire division was converted into paratroopers.

The 2003 adaptation portrayed it very accurately; a 13th century Band of Brothers with Guo Jing leading the way. It even had his 10,000 men commanders' incredulity at cutting up the tents to make kites/parachutes in the winter weather, and the request for help in exploiting the breakthrough.

[Ren Wo Xing]

The 2003 adaptation portrayed it very accurately; a 13th century Band of Brothers with Guo Jing leading the way. It even had his 10,000 men commanders' incredulity at cutting up the tents to make kites/parachutes in the winter weather, and the request for help in exploiting the breakthrough.

Yes, the 2003 adaptation was THE most accurate adaptation of any novel I've ever seen. Almost too much, actually, in that some parts were too slow.

[Ken Cheng]

OK...so Gwok Jing didn't attempt to singlehandedly take on the Khwarmezeid/Jin Empire armies behind the Samarkand walls (curse you again, TVB!).

Still, when Gwok Jing returned to Genghis Khan's service after two years away in the Central Plains, Gwok Jing was a far more powerful martial artist than when he had left the Khan. Gwok Jing brought back far more than the excellent archery skills and simple bravery he had left with (and didn't Gwok Jing save Genghis from an assassination attempt by Kau Cheen Yan?). At some point, Genghis must have begun to realize the value of having good martial artists in his army...something that his descendants really worked at building up during ROCH.

[Ren Wo Xing]

There was no Qiu Qianren assassination attempt that I remember; must be TVB again. And Genghis Khan valued Guo Jing tremendously when it returned, but it was because of his incredible warfare skills which he gained from the Wumu Legacy that Yue Fei left.

Ken, I highly recommend that you actually read the excellent translations. I'm aware of your stance, but LOCH and ROCH are both finished; HSDS is only a sequel to those two books in the loosest of senses (and honestly, I don't even consider it to be a true sequel), having only one interlapping character (boy Z3F and centennial Z3F) who are completely different, only two overlapping martial arts that make rare appearances (a little 9Ying and even less XL18Z), two overlapping schools (the ubiquitous Shaolin and Ancient Tomb at the very end).

I would say that there is maybe only 5% overlap in the actual story, at most, and reading LOCH/ROCH really would not have an effect. The link between DGSD and LOCH/ROCH is even MORE tenuous.

You bring up an interesting point though. When DID the Mongols begin to suddenly put an emphasis on recruiting powerful martial artists? Hrm...

[Ken Cheng]

You bring up an interesting point though. When DID the Mongols begin to suddenly put an emphasis on recruiting powerful martial artists? Hrm...

Yeah...during the thirteen year period between the end of LOCH and the beginning of ROCH, the Mongols went from almost complete ignorance of wulin martial arts to making it a high priority. Maybe this was Tolui's doing.

[pannonian]

Yeah...during the thirteen year period between the end of LOCH and the beginning of ROCH, the Mongols went from almost complete ignorance of wulin martial arts to making it a high priority. Maybe this was Tolui's doing.

Going by a mixture of JY and RL, probably Khubilai's doing, rather than Tolui. IRL, Khubilai was an incompetent commander, who faffed around in the south before being recalled to explain himself to Mongke. He saved his skin by grovelling to his brother, but Mongke then took over the southern effort (being the best old-school general still alive). In JY terms, I'd say that Khubilai spent much of his time messing around with wulin plots and schemes to very little effect, before Mongke got impatient and took over with a more direct military effort instead.

[Ken Cheng]

Going by a mixture of JY and RL, probably Khubilai's doing, rather than Tolui. IRL, Khubilai was an incompetent commander, who faffed around in the south before being recalled to explain himself to Mongke. He saved his skin by grovelling to his brother, but Mongke then took over the southern effort (being the best old-school general still alive). In JY terms, I'd say that Khubilai spent much of his time messing around with wulin plots and schemes to very little effect, before Mongke got impatient and took over with a more direct military effort instead.

Heh. Kublai might not have been the greatest military leader the Mongols had, but could anybody have been a better Yuan Emperor? After 300 years of generally inept Sung leadership, China actually began to do a little better with Kublai Khan as the first Yuan Emperor (not that comparisons with the Sung dynastic court is exactly setting the bar high).

[pannonian]

For anyone interested in the subject, I recommend "Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World", by Jack Wetherford.

[Ken Cheng]

Another question about the Mongol paratroopers.

Since this tactic worked so well against Samarkand, why didn't the Mongols repeat the tactic at Seung Yeung?

[Ren Wo Xing]

Remember, they leaped off of a mountain to fall onto Samarkand. Where are they going to leap off of to land in Xiang Yang?

[cristal entity]

Another question about the Mongol paratroopers.

Since this tactic worked so well against Samarkand, why didn't the Mongols repeat the tactic at Seung Yeung?

Best Question ever, maybe theres no hills nearby?