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Thread: Lee Chum Foon's second and third dagger?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Lee Chum Foon's second and third dagger?

    Lee Chum Foon's first thrown dagger is the famous one: absolutely unavoidable, never failing to find its mark, feared and respected throughout wulin.

    But by Lee Chum Foon's own admission, his second and third thrown dagger, should they be necessary (they never are), are not nearly as extraordinary. Why is this so? Is it because he expends so much concentration and inner power in that first strike that he has nothing left in the tank for a second or third strike? And just how much time needs to pass between strikes for a subsequent strike be considered a new"first" dagger and not a "second" dagger following the first?

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Don't know why, but it might have something to do with why he was beaten to a pulp by some randoms (i.e more than one guy), and had to be rescued by that loser who eventually became his sworn brother and stole his chick.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Lee Chum Foon's first thrown dagger is the famous one: absolutely unavoidable, never failing to find its mark, feared and respected throughout wulin.

    But by Lee Chum Foon's own admission, his second and third thrown dagger, should they be necessary (they never are), are not nearly as extraordinary. Why is this so? Is it because he expends so much concentration and inner power in that first strike that he has nothing left in the tank for a second or third strike? And just how much time needs to pass between strikes for a subsequent strike be considered a new"first" dagger and not a "second" dagger following the first?
    I think its one of those Gu Long 'Ha! This sentence would sound nice, I'll write it even though I don't give a toss what it really means' moments.

    So make what you will of it.

    I would like to interpret it as 'Lee always releases the dagger at the perfect moment. So any subsequent moment would by definition be - imperfect'.

    In any case, Lee isn't exactly helpless without a thrown dagger. He could stop Guo Song Yang's sword strike even without throwing the dagger out.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    I think its one of those Gu Long 'Ha! This sentence would sound nice, I'll write it even though I don't give a toss what it really means' moments.

    So make what you will of it.

    I would like to interpret it as 'Lee always releases the dagger at the perfect moment. So any subsequent moment would by definition be - imperfect'.

    In any case, Lee isn't exactly helpless without a thrown dagger. He could stop Guo Song Yang's sword strike even without throwing the dagger out.
    Lee Chum Foon is pretty good in one-on-one melee fighting. I don't know that he's ever lost a one-on-one fight. He's terrible against groups, though. Once he gets ganged up on, he's in trouble.

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    It's because he only carries one dagger; that's why his second dagger isn't frightening. Just one of those Gulong comments.
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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Yeah it's his way to make some characters appear cooler than they really are.

    Hey RWX, that should be "Night Rain Over Xiao and Xiang". Xiao and Xiang are two rivers. It's a great scene in XAJH. I love it.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    He carries only dagger. So obviously there won't be any further daggers.
    "Big Hero Linghu kills frogs with the Dugu Nine Swords!


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    I think he said it just to remind the people around him that whoever going to attack him first will just die and just let others take the credit of killing him. It is like a person holding a revolver telling the crowd attacking him that "I can't kill all of you but the first 6 will take the bullets before I die." That way no one will be dumb enough to take the first move.

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    Yeah it's his way to make some characters appear cooler than they really are.

    Hey RWX, that should be "Night Rain Over Xiao and Xiang". Xiao and Xiang are two rivers. It's a great scene in XAJH. I love it.
    Thanks for the info, Candide. Yes, I love that scene as well (witness my support for Mr. Not Big in the Survivor games); for the quote, I actually just pasted from Lanny's translation.
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    Notwithstanding the possibly that it's a Gu Longism, I think it's more like, LXHs entire fighting strategy revolves around that one big dagger throw. So if he has to resort to a 2nd dagger, his confidence will be shattered and with each successive dagger the chances of him hitting decrease, plus he doesn't really train for rapid fire throws or anything like that.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey View Post
    Notwithstanding the possibly that it's a Gu Longism, I think it's more like, LXHs entire fighting strategy revolves around that one big dagger throw. So if he has to resort to a 2nd dagger, his confidence will be shattered and with each successive dagger the chances of him hitting decrease, plus he doesn't really train for rapid fire throws or anything like that.
    Quite true. When his dagger hit the Fat Hutt and did not kill her, he was pissing his pants.
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    Well, in all fairness, nearly any men would be pissing in their pants at seeing the Fat Hutt at all, especially considering she had a dagger stuck in her eye but was laughing like the crazy biatch she was.
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    Say, since the fat woman failed to be killed by Lee's dagger, didn't his legendary lethality come to an end right then and there? At the very least, we know of one person who survived.

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    LXH's skills were better then that, he wasn't limited to one dagger, but his strike was composed of all his concentration. if he tried to throw out a number of daggers at once, his concentration would be split and his dagger's power weakened. but he can do it, his daggers would still be dangerous. like when ah fei struck out at several fighters at once. LHX fought against superior numbers and won, he fell into a trap when Long 3 saved him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Say, since the fat woman failed to be killed by Lee's dagger, didn't his legendary lethality come to an end right then and there? At the very least, we know of one person who survived.
    2 things.

    His legend is loosly translated as 'Once released, never misses', its not exactly 'Once released, Sure Kill'. He had shot his dagger for show before (e.g. at Shangguan's manor). Since he did hit the Hutt, it still stands.

    IIRC the 2 witnesses both did not survive. Guess no one told the tale.
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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    An interesting scenario would be if Li Xunhuan release the dagger at opponent, suddenly a bird flew by, taking the hit. Then it will be considered a miss.
    楚留香笑道:你口气倒真不小。 小字出口,他已箭一般向阴姬冲了过去。他知道自己唯一能胜过对方之处,就是个快字。所以他尽量利用 这快字,只要他能抢得一刹那间的先机,他就或许还有战胜的希望。他出手实在快,快如急风,快如闪电。谁 知他刚一出手,阴姬的手掌一挥,就立刻有一股奇异的力量阻住了他的去路,这股力量如浪潮初起,澎湃不绝。楚 留香莫说根本无法抢得先机,根本就近不了她的身。

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    2 things.

    His legend is loosly translated as 'Once released, never misses', its not exactly 'Once released, Sure Kill'. He had shot his dagger for show before (e.g. at Shangguan's manor). Since he did hit the Hutt, it still stands.

    IIRC the 2 witnesses both did not survive. Guess no one told the tale.
    Yup. In fact, it's stated by him in the book that out of the people whom he had hit with his dagger, a number (1/4, I think?) did not die, because he didn't think them deserving of death.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    An interesting scenario would be if Li Xunhuan release the dagger at opponent, suddenly a bird flew by, taking the hit. Then it will be considered a miss.
    I'm sure he would have taken into account the surroundings....making sure no bird leaf crazy old men lurking by to make him miss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    I think its one of those Gu Long 'Ha! This sentence would sound nice, I'll write it even though I don't give a toss what it really means' moments.

    So make what you will of it.

    I would like to interpret it as 'Lee always releases the dagger at the perfect moment. So any subsequent moment would by definition be - imperfect'.

    In any case, Lee isn't exactly helpless without a thrown dagger. He could stop Guo Song Yang's sword strike even without throwing the dagger out.
    Personally, I think Guo can certainly kill Li if the latter did not have a dagger.

    From what I remember from their duel, Guo unleashed a move that sent sword chi that encircled Li. Li stopped the surrounding sword chi by cutting off its source, he threw his dagger at Guo's sword, causing sparks and stopping the attack. The dagger returned to Li's hands, but its tip was broken, and in consequence any future throws would have its speed impeded.

    At that point Guo could have killed Li but spared him since Li also spared Guo 3 times earlier in that fight.

    But Li was refered to as a first rate master even without his dagger, but I'm not sure how good he is exactly, certainly not top 10 level though.

    EDIT: I remember him being way below Hu BuGui in unarmed combat since he acknowledged that he would lose even without Hu using a sneak attack. And Li is above the famous escort boss that appeared early in the novel, as he was arguing with his carriage servant that he could beat him in 10 moves I think.
    Last edited by Wellesley; 11-16-07 at 12:00 AM.

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    Senior Member kwekmh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wellesley View Post
    Personally, I think Guo can certainly kill Li if the latter did not have a dagger.

    From what I remember from their duel, Guo unleashed a move that sent sword chi that encircled Li. Li stopped the surrounding sword chi by cutting off its source, he threw his dagger at Guo's sword, causing sparks and stopping the attack. The dagger returned to Li's hands, but its tip was broken, and in consequence any future throws would have its speed impeded.

    At that point Guo could have killed Li but spared him since Li also spared Guo 3 times earlier in that fight.

    But Li was refered to as a first rate master even without his dagger, but I'm not sure how good he is exactly, certainly not top 10 level though.

    EDIT: I remember him being way below Hu BuGui in unarmed combat since he acknowledged that he would lose even without Hu using a sneak attack. And Li is above the famous escort boss that appeared early in the novel, as he was arguing with his carriage servant that he could beat him in 10 moves I think.
    If you want to talk about unarmed combat, ask Guo to not use his sword also then. The fight would then be fairer.

    Obviously one's skills would drop when they do not have their main weapon which they have practised on for the most of their life unless they have reached the highest pinnacle of martial arts.

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