View Poll Results: How did Li Xun Huan survive Guo SongYang's attack?

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  • Li threw his dagger at Guo's physical sword from long range

    2 22.22%
  • Li blocked Guo's physical sword from close quarters

    6 66.67%
  • Li stabbed at Guo's physical sword from close quarters

    1 11.11%
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Thread: Li Xun Huan vs Guo SongYang

  1. #1
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    Default Li Xun Huan vs Guo SongYang

    I'm genuinely interested in hearing about each reader's interpretation of this battle when they first read the book. How did you picture this duel?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    It is pretty obvious to me that LXH did not throw his dagger, he blocked the sword while holding to the dagger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss
    I think they're probably at the same level as or one level below Ah Qing, which is about the level of a 2nd or 3rd generation Quan Zhen disciple.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Choices 2 and 3 sound pretty much the same.

    My interpretation is: first, Guo Songyang launched a storm of sword qi's surrounding 3 zhang diameter, so that Li Xunhuan couldn't evade this attack. Then, Guo Songyang stabbed his sword at Li Xunhuan's head. Li Xunhuan, unable to move, had no choice but to raise his hand and physically let his dagger meet Guo Songyang's sword.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  4. #4
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    What I don't get is how a swordsman such as Gwok Sung Yeung, who could project sword chi, could have lost to Ging Mo Meng...who was highly skilled, but "merely" a fast swordsman...lacking in chi techniques and truly advanced martial arts skills. Ging Mo Meng was basically another Ah Fei (who at his best, was better than Ging and likely also could have defeated Gwok).

  5. #5
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    What I don't get is how a swordsman such as Gwok Sung Yeung, who could project sword chi, could have lost to Ging Mo Meng...who was highly skilled, but "merely" a fast swordsman...lacking in chi techniques and truly advanced martial arts skills. Ging Mo Meng was basically another Ah Fei (who at his best, was better than Ging and likely also could have defeated Gwok).
    Gu Long's martial arts "philosophy" seems a bit odd, especially when he implied that one who was described to be able to destroy the world (Yan 13) would not be a match for a dagger thrower.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  6. #6
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    What I don't get is how a swordsman such as Gwok Sung Yeung, who could project sword chi, could have lost to Ging Mo Meng...who was highly skilled, but "merely" a fast swordsman...lacking in chi techniques and truly advanced martial arts skills. Ging Mo Meng was basically another Ah Fei (who at his best, was better than Ging and likely also could have defeated Gwok).
    He may or may not have lost to Jin Wuming, but keep in mind...Shangguan Jinhong was there. Songyang was going to die no matter what, and Shangguan would never have let him kill Jin Wuming. So he sacrificed himself to let Jin Wuming hit him many times to expose a degree of Jin Wuming's martial arts ability to Li Xunhuan.

    In terms of who is actually better...we can't say.
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  7. #7
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    I was wrong then, time to revise my perspective of this fight.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    It's all perspective, in the TVB version Li did throw the dagger (but it didn't return to his hand).

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    What I don't get is how a swordsman such as Gwok Sung Yeung, who could project sword chi, could have lost to Ging Mo Meng...who was highly skilled, but "merely" a fast swordsman...lacking in chi techniques and truly advanced martial arts skills. Ging Mo Meng was basically another Ah Fei (who at his best, was better than Ging and likely also could have defeated Gwok).
    Sword chi isn't everything though. Would anyone be surprised if DGQB beat Duan Yu without having to use sword chi? Probably not. Same thing with sweeper monk. I bet sweeper could tap every acupuncture pt on DY without DY's sword chi doing any damge at all.

  10. #10
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    What I don't get is how a swordsman such as Gwok Sung Yeung, who could project sword chi, could have lost to Ging Mo Meng...who was highly skilled, but "merely" a fast swordsman...lacking in chi techniques and truly advanced martial arts skills. Ging Mo Meng was basically another Ah Fei (who at his best, was better than Ging and likely also could have defeated Gwok).

    Just look at Linghu Chong! Swordsman who could project light, chi and what-not fancy effects just lose to a chi-less poke.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  11. #11
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    HSDS: Formlessness > Technique = Speed

    SPW: Speed > Formlessness > Technique = LDA

    DGSD: Enlightenment > LDA > Technique

    Based on the above brief sampling, I would say Enlightenment is the ***-kicking way to go in Jin Yong universe.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  12. #12
    Senior Member shenlong's Avatar
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    Your brief sampling has speed and formless jumping all over the place except where DGSD is, although I agree enlightenment is amazing.

    Topic: Pretty sure it's a block, or at least how I read it.
    秋风清,秋风明;落叶聚还散,寒鸦栖复惊。相思相见知何日,此时此夜难为情

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    Sword chi isn't everything though. Would anyone be surprised if DGQB beat Duan Yu without having to use sword chi? Probably not. Same thing with sweeper monk. I bet sweeper could tap every acupuncture pt on DY without DY's sword chi doing any damge at all.
    I tend to agree. I think people often lose sight of the fact that sword chi is still performed with techniques. And if those techniques are simple, the resulting martial arts wouldn't be that great either.

    Let me take this chance to once again promote Ah Qing, who had the ultimate combination of sword qi + formlessness + unmatchable speed.
    明月心跳起來,又回頭,嫣然道,你還要不要我帶上那面具?
    傅紅雪冷道,現在你臉上豈非已經戴上了個面具?

  14. #14
    Junior Member encoish's Avatar
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    Wow, seems like my interpretation is different from others. The first time I read it through I thought Li Xun Huan threw the dagger at close quarters when he had no choice, then his dagger's tip broke off. After that, Guo Song Yang admitted he lost then walked away. That's how I thought of it. Maybe I should go read it again.
    If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?

  15. #15
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    There is something which seems very odd to me. It said that Guo Songyang has emit enough sword qi to cover 3 meters of surrounding area, such that Li Xunhuan would be screwed if he tried to move in any direction. So then why didn't the massive sword qi do anything to the center of the area where Li's head is?! It seems like the sword qi is only effective off target but it has no effect on the target!

    Well, if it was capable of doing something to the target, then the sword qi would have swept Li away, but it was said that Li's dagger actually physically met Guo's sword tip. So Li must have endured any sword qi which came before the physical sword. Which means either Li threw the dagger, or the sword qi couldn't do him any harm. It didn't seem like Li threw the dagger, so I conclude that the sword qi emitted by Guo Songyang was useless against Li.

    And yet, it was said that Li couldn't move so no choice but to meet the sword head on. Logically, this suggests that Guo Songyang spent a lot of effort trying to cover the 3 meter surround area, but he failed to make his direct attack effective. One wonders if Guo Songyang had concentrated all his energy into a single direct attack, would that have given Li more trouble.

    My 2 cents: it seems to be the case in Gu Long universe and in SPW that sword qi emitted by fighters are not really unblockable or unbreakable. Guo Songyang's sword energy proved ineffective against Li Xunhuan, while Dan Qingsheng and Chongxu's fancy sword circles proved penetratable by Linghu Chong. But in the Song dynasty, this seems not to be the case, where energy emitted by top fighters are described to be unadvanceable for opponents. For example When Hong Qigong blasted at Guo Jing, the energy was said to be so powerful that there was no way for Guo Jing to reach near Hong's body. One wonders if Hong blasted at Linghu Chong, would he be able to thrust forward with a random stab and break the stance, or would he be swept away by the mighty LDA/LDS? And I'm serious this time.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  16. #16
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    I visualise it like a circle of energy closing in on Li.

    By thrusting his dagger forward, he is breaking a rift thru the circle to contact Guo's sword.

    This somehow brings back imageries of the 24 Variation God-and-Ghost Exchange Swordplay.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  17. #17
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Yes, my interpretation was much the same. If he had aimed the qi straight at Li Xunhuan, Li would've been able to dodge. It's only because he circled it around Li that Li was unable to flee from it.
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  18. #18
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    If he had aimed the qi straight at Li Xunhuan, Li would've been able to dodge. It's only because he circled it around Li that Li was unable to flee from it.
    Well, he couldn't release enough energy to harm Li either way, either Li would dodge or Li would simply thrust forward, so I guess Guo is lost in any case.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  19. #19
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    But still, we can see the Guo's energy circle was penetratable by Li. This is understandable since Li probably has comparable or more internal energy as Guo. But in the case of SPW, Chongxu who should have more internal energy than Linghu Chong, was not able to prevent sword penetration of is sword circles. Whereas, it seems to me that the palm blast released by Hong Qigong is penetration proof against Guo Jing's calibre.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    But still, we can see the Guo's energy circle was penetratable by Li. This is understandable since Li probably has comparable or more internal energy as Guo. But in the case of SPW, Chongxu who should have more internal energy than Linghu Chong, was not able to prevent sword penetration of is sword circles. Whereas, it seems to me that the palm blast released by Hong Qigong is penetration proof against Guo Jing's calibre.
    Perhaps LHC was able to focus all his sword energy into one point? One reason why 6MSJ is so powerful because it allows you to focus all the energy together into one point. My guess is that LHC did something similar to LMSJ here, which allowed him to break a higher energy attack (but dispersed over a greater area) with a weaker attack.

    In GJ's case, my guess is that his techniques were probably not advanced yet to break HQG's attacks. Also, keep in mind that there was a big gap between when these two stories were written so it's kind hard to compare the two situations. When in doubt, I tend to go with the theories that are established in JY's later works.

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