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Thread: What Constitute a Legit Marriage in Wuxia/Ancient China?

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    Moderator Suet Seung's Avatar
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    Default What Constitute a Legit Marriage in Wuxia/Ancient China?

    We come from the modern era where marriage requires legal documents and witnesses. But Traditional Chinese and other cultures don't require that, and its mostly ceremonies with the witness of elders and paying respect to elders and Heaven.

    So when a couple in wuxia take oath with the moon or sun whatever, does that make their marriage legal or legit? Do they need a third party as their witness?

    So what makes marriage in wuxia legit? I mean for some characters they don't have parents or in some circumstances no witness of their oath to each other to become spouses, so I'm just curious.
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    Senior Member HuangYushi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suet Seung View Post
    We come from the modern era where marriage requires legal documents and witnesses. But Traditional Chinese and other cultures don't require that, and its mostly ceremonies with the witness of elders and paying respect to elders and Heaven.
    Not true. During dynastic times in China, the marriage process consisted of 6 key steps, of which the 3rd, called 纳吉, comes with documentation that is admissible in ancient courts of law. Also, the underlined parts in the excerpt below lists the various legal documents for marriages during the Tang, Song and other periods.

    From: http://www.ccdy.cn/pubnews/451284/20071129/531031.htm
    2.关于领结婚证
    古代婚礼,需经过“纳采”、“问名”、“纳吉”、“纳征”、“请期”、“亲迎”六道程序,即“六礼”。其中 “纳吉”即订婚,有字据。如唐代的“报婚书”、宋代的“过细帖”,近代的“传庚”、“换帖”乃至现代的“定婚”都是一个性质,都有法 律效力

    If you want a fun introduction to the marriage process of dynastic China and all its legal entanglements, you could watch TVB's Better Halves, which goes on and on about marriage procedures and laws in the Tang Dynasty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suet Seung View Post
    So when a couple in wuxia take oath with the moon or sun whatever, does that make their marriage legal or legit? Do they need a third party as their witness?

    So what makes marriage in wuxia legit? I mean for some characters they don't have parents or in some circumstances no witness of their oath to each other to become spouses, so I'm just curious.
    There are a few things to consider when talking about marriage in wuxia.

    1. There is the social norm of male and female not being in close proximity.

    Any well-bred/taught single girl (or even married woman, for that matter) would not want to be found being in private and close proximity with a man who is not a close relative (e.g. grandfather, father, uncle, brother, husband).

    Women in wuxia tend to be different, of course, since many of them tend to be brought up in environments where that are many men, e.g. martial arts, political and governmental organisations.

    But they are all still more or less bound psychologically by the norm in that if a woman is found spending way too much time with a man without a 3rd party present, chances are something would have happpened between them.

    This is why Duan Zhengchun mentioned marriage to Zhong Wanchou when Zhong Ling and Duan Yu were found in the stone hut.

    Which brings us to the next point...

    2. The greater the social standing of the families, the more likely the families will utilise the proper and complete set of marriage procedures in bringing their children together.

    This is a matter of sticking to the law, and keeping the family's collective face (dignity). But since Zhong Wanchou could not accept Duan Zhengchun's proposal to have Zhong Ling marry Duan Yu during the stone-hut incident, the Duans did not pursue it at that point in time.

    Of course, Duan Yu did marry Zhong Ling later in the 3rd ed, but by then, he was already in a position of great political power.

    ---

    For a combination of #1 and #2, we have Zhang Wuji and Zhou Zhiruo. He did not want to touch her in an intimate way although he had to do it to save her life (supposedly), so Xie Xun suggested that they become engaged.

    At that time, engagement is considered a legitimate union of 2 people with its own legally-admissible document, but since Zhang Wuji, Zhou Zhiruo and Xie Xun were in the middle of nowhere, they couldn't get any documents processed, of course.

    ---

    But if nothing is conducive to proper marriage procedures, the couple can always go ahead and take their oaths under the sun, moon and stars ... or just promise to live, love and take care of each other. Examples:

    1. Zhang Cuishan and Yin Susu (stranded, family objections).
    2. Zhang Wuji and Zhao Min (orphaned/estranged/disowned by family).
    3. Xiao Feng and A'Zhu (supposedly orphaned/unknown families).
    4. Yang Kang and Mu Nianci (family objections).
    5. Guo Jing and Huang Rong (family objections).
    6. Yang Guo and Xiaolongnό (orphaned, ignorant, family objections).
    7. Yuan Chengzhi and Wen Qingqing (orphaned, displaced).
    8. Hu Fei and Miao Ruolan (orphaned, close proximity).
    9. Di Yun and Shui Sheng (orphaned).
    10. Wei Xiaobao and his harem (ignorant but willing and happy!).

    As you can see, wuxia couples can be so conveniently orphaned for the purposes of marriage!

    HYS
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    Moderator Suet Seung's Avatar
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    Ah, thanks Yushi for clarifying that and correcting me too. I thought there wasn't any legal document, therefore, the European saw the Eastern Asian marriages or something not legit. I don't know! Theres something different in the marital system?
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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    LOL at ignorant as the reason for XLN and WXB. Thx HYS! Didn't know and nearly all the main marriages were without proper documentations in JY.
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    Senior Member HuangYushi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suet Seung View Post
    I thought there wasn't any legal document, therefore, the European saw the Eastern Asian marriages or something not legit. I don't know! Theres something different in the marital system?
    When? In which era? In dynastic China or in modern times?
    Jin Yong's Ode to Gallantry [侠客行].
    Quote Originally Posted by atlantean0208
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuangYushi View Post
    When? In which era? In dynastic China or in modern times?
    Sounds more like a reaction to dynastic China, in particular to Ching dynasty China, in which case the Europeans were probably thinking along the lines of "those godless heathens..."

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    Senior Member mich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz View Post
    LOL at ignorant as the reason for XLN and WXB. Thx HYS! Didn't know and nearly all the main marriages were without proper documentations in JY.
    I wouldn't say those are marriages...According to my understanding, the couples HuangYushi noted are not legally married since they didn't adhere to the 6 steps.
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    Senior Member Son of Light's Avatar
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    If I am not wrong, there are also household registry laws in Ancient China from around the Tang Dynasty.
    Which after one had preformed the 6 steps, they need to register their marriage with the local gov.
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    Senior Member smurf120's Avatar
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    I concur - I thing JY's couples were all about just living together since many did not even officially perform the bow to heaven and earth step of the ceremony (onscreen).

    Closest marriage formality I can think of is:

    1) Genghis Khan declaring Guo Jing as Golden Sword Fu Ma - that didn't work out

    2) ZWJ and ZZR - nope

    3) WXB actually did bow heaven/earth with Ah Ke - but it was playacting/forced

    ...so maybe this is JY commentary about marriage.

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    Senior Member smurf120's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuangYushi View Post
    If you want a fun introduction to the marriage process of dynastic China and all its legal entanglements, you could watch TVB's Better Halves, which goes on and on about marriage procedures and laws in the Tang Dynasty.

    HYS
    I can see why wedding planning is such big business in China!

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