Principia Mathematica & GJ's Philosophy of Learning

[Edmund Lau]

Comparisons of Martial Artists:

In the LOCH/ROCH world, the level of martial arts is very evenly distributed. It worked kinda like the metric system really. Let's see if you agree.

7 Mongol/Jin Soldier = 1 Yang Tie Xin/Guo Xiao Tian
7 Yang Tie Xin/Guo Xiao Tian = 1 Jiang Nan Freak
7 Jiang Nan Freaks = 1 Quanzhen "Zhi" (e.g. Qiu Chuji) / 1 disciple of a Great (e.g. Mei Chaofeng)
7 Quanzhen "Zhi" = 1 Great (e.g. Huang Yaoshi)

In short, it'll take 49 Jiang Nan Freaks to battle 1 Great, and provided all 49 Freaks attack him at the same time. However, if the Great (e.g. HYS) were to kill off even 1 Freak, the equation will be disrupted and the rest of the 48 will be sure to lose, right?

In ROCH, it took hundreds of Quanzhen 3rd/4th level disciples to surround GJ and even so, he broke their formation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On GJ's Progress in Martial Arts:

As everyone knows, GJ is really not very bright. He learns everything by hardwork and persistence. From the way Jiang Nan 7 Freaks taught him, it was quite obvious that: [1] they were not teaching him correctly and [2] he wasn't quite adept at figuring out the proper theories of martial arts by himself. Therefore, when Ma Yu taught him correctly how to regulate his breathing (and thus his internal energy), he persistently "followed" this method and in time, his internal energy increased (even surpassing the Freaks).

LOCH is really the story of GJ's continuous learning of skills. The real turning-point in his life was when Hong 7 Gong taught him "Xiang Long 18 Palms". As an aside, if that did not happen, GJ would probably not be a significant human being at all. Granted, his patriotism would probably drive him to defend Xiang Yang against the Mongol invaders - but he'll probably be just another nameless soldier in the war. In short, if GJ did not meet up with HR and if HR did not have great culinary skills to entice Hong 7 Gong, and if Hong 7 Gong did not teach him "Xiang Long 18 Palms", GJ is nothing.

With "Xiang Long 18 Palms" as his real base-skill, he met Zhou Bo Tong, learned "9 Yin" and the "Two-Hands Skill". After that, he observed Ouyang Feng, Huang Yao Shi and Hong 7 Gong's duel. From then on, he started to understand the logic ("tao") behind martial arts more and more - which led to his achieving the level of a "Great" by ROCH era.

In short, I was establishing that Hong 7 Gong's "Xiang Long 18 Palms" is the single skill that "made" GJ.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On GJ's Philosophy of Learning:

At the start of ROCH, GJ himself became a teacher. He had Guo Fu, Yang Guo, Wu Dunru and Wu Xiuwen pay respects to the tombs of the 6 Freaks and Ke Zhen-E, the only surviving Freak.

Then he explained his philosophy - "I learnt my skills from many different schools and teachers to arrive at where I am today. BUT (and this is the important point), ONE MUST NOT FORGET ONE'S ROOTS ("ren bu ke wang ben")! So I will start teaching you all the most basic skills first..."

In short, he started teaching them the most useless skills! By the end of ROCH, we see that Guo Fu's skills were still nowhere - probably just some Yue Nu Sword-skill and a mixture of this and that. Wu Dunru/Wu Xiuwen were also pretty lousy but they did learn "Yi Yang" Finger so they were slightly better. Guo Polu was a total zero - so much that he couldn't even protect the Dragon Sabre. Why did no one learn GJ's real skills like "Xiang Long 18 Palms" and "9 Yin"?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yang Guo's Philosophy of Learning (and why it works):

The main reason GJ's method of teaching failed was because he was trying to duplicate his "learning path" unto his disciples. What he forgot was that his disciples are not like him (they lack his persistence) and they also have different life-experiences. Note that GJ learned a lot of his skills in desperate times and/or by fluke (meeting "Greats"). Events in one's life cannot be duplicated. In short, GJ was unable to "cut-and-paste" his "learning path" unto his disciples - and they ended up amounting to very little. You cannot "simulate" your life-experiences for another person. His disciples probably took to his teaching very academically - like attending a particular class/subject that they're not even very interested in but taught by a well-known professor. Notice how they went out bragging about how they were in Professor Guo Jing's class (although they learnt nothing of his "real" skills) - isn't this true in real-life as well?

YG was different because he learned in his own "real-life" situations, rather than an academic/simulated environment. Also, he kept measuring his own level - in comparison with others (thus, the above mathematical comparisons). He wasn't thinking just which "professor" he studied under but where he himself is at realistically. He observed Wu brothers practising GJ's skills and compared himself to them - then choosing to learn Ouyang Feng's "Toad Skill" instead (to hell with "one must not forget one's roots" nonsense). Result? He nearly killed Wu Xiuwen! Then when he met the Quanzhen members, he saw how they were defeated by GJ badly. In his own words, "Why did Uncle Guo send me to learn from all these losers? Even if I'm hardworking and master everything I'm taught, I'll simply be another Zhao Zhijing!" Of course, in GJ's mind, he remembered that Wang Chongyang was the "numero uno" fighter and also how he himself benefitted from Ma Yu's teachings (again, "one must not forget one's roots").

While learning under XLN, YG continued to measure his own progress - "At my present level can I defeat Lu Qingdu?" and later "At my present level, can I defeat Guo Fu/Wu brothers?", still later "What about Qiu Chuji?" then finally "Am I finally a match for Uncle and Auntie Guo?" YG had this persistence and hunger to improve himself - to prove his own worthiness. He doesn't know the kind of comfortable "academic" nonchalance ("spoon-fed" learning) of the Wu brothers. See how excited he was when XLN taught him new skills, or when Ouyang Feng met him again and discussed martial arts (so much that he forgotten about XLN who was alone), or when he met Hong 7 Gong, Huang Yaoshi and even when Golden Wheel Monk asked him about his progress (he was lost in meditation for days and finally decided to take the best principles from each skill and then forge his own skill) - even later when he met the Giant Condor and saw Dugu Qiubai's last will and testament.

A lot of times, he had to think his own way through. He wasn't satisfied with just learning under reputable "professors". He wanted to become one himself. In his words again, "Every skill under the sky were invented by human beings - why can't I, Yang Guo, invent my own skill?" That was his motivation to finally become a Grand Master ("da zong shi") himself.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some thoughts:

What do you all think about GJ's "not forgetting one's roots" thinking? Think of the possibilities should he had taught his disciples "Xiang Long 18 Palms" instead of nonsense like Jiang Nan 7 Freaks' skills? YG had no time for mundane/mediocre skills - only the best.

From my personal experience studying ancient languages, theology, history, one of the most frustrating thing people say to me is "no, that book is too deep for me" or "I'm happy to even get the basics - the advanced stuff is for experts". Why? Why waste time with basic/root-level rote-learning when you can have the best? People are actually contented with waddling in ponds rather than brave the uncertainty and excitement of the oceans. Even teachers/pastors have told me stuff like "Edmund, don't get too ambitious - learn the roots first?" (of course, by that they really mean - don't try to be funny or a smart-aleck, stick only to the root-level stuff so that you are forever under our thumb! Authority-figures never like renegades and free-thinkers!) Then you have some people who say stuff like, "what happens if you learn the 'wrong' stuff?" or "isn't it safer to just follow a proper/orthodox/reputable teacher - and leave all the thinking to him?" Of course, I later learned that what they defined as "wrong-thinking" is really just "thinking" (something they are never ever guilty of).

I welcome your views on the above. Discuss freely - the only crime anyone should be guilty of is that of "free-thought".

~ Edmund Lau

[HuangYushi]

What do you all think about GJ's "not forgetting one's roots" thinking?

As a way of thought per se, "not forgetting one's roots" is not something that is necessarily bad. In a nutshell, "not forgetting one's roots" is about remembering the past and learning from it, so as to be a better person and have a better future. As to what constitutes "better", that would have to depend of individual situations and circumstances.

Think of the possibilities should he had taught his disciples "Xiang Long 18 Palms" instead of nonsense like Jiang Nan 7 Freaks' skills?

One of the things that has to be considered before the discussion attempts to answer this question (and thus goes off into a variety of directions and trains of thought), is the fact that Guo Jing's students (Guo Fu and the Wu brothers) came to him as children with hardly any real abilities or prior schooling in martial arts.

The second thing that has to be considered is the fact that Guo Jing did not learn the 18 Palms until he was almost a young adult, when he had already had more than a decade of training in martial arts with the Jiangnan 7, as well as the foundations of Quanzhen internal strength *and* the supplementary benefit of herb-steeped snake's blood, courtesy of the creature belonging to Liang Ziweng.

Could the Wu brothers (never mind Guo Fu) begin learning the 18 Palms while they were still children, within a short period of time after becoming Guo Jing's students, since the physiological make-up of these boys' bodies would have been different from Guo Jing's when he (GJ) started learning the 18 Palms?

In the 1st edition of HSDS, Zhang Wuji did succeed to learning and executing 3 moves from the 18 Palms with considerable impact as a child from the same age-group as Guo Fu and the Wu brothers, but Jin Yong removed all references to this particular feat from the 2nd edition onwards. Could this be an indication that the 18 Palms might not be a suitable technique for beginners (and specifically, children) in martial arts?

HYS

[S Beaver]

hmm, intersting points

though i think the roots GJ is talking about is different from what we think of as "basics"...

roots, in GJ's mind is more of "where you came from".

however, basics doesn't necessarily refer to that. its more like the first rock on a path of stepping stones. you can't learn calculus if you can't even understand addition or multiplication or algebra, etc.

GJ didn't teach his disciples "basics", he taught them "roots". basics would not be the 7 Freak's martial arts, it would be what Ma Yu had taught him. afterall, he of all people should know the setbacks of weak internal power....

thus, GJ is still a horrible & illogical teacher nevertheless

Could the Wu brothers (never mind Guo Fu) begin learning the 18 Palms while they were still children, within a short period of time after becoming Guo Jing's students, since the physiological make-up of these boys' bodies would have been different from Guo Jing's when he (GJ) started learning the 18 Palms?

the problem is that they were not taught even in their 30-40s, even when they were well fit to learn 1yang finger while in their 20s. did GJ not bother to teach them higher skills since he thought 1yang finger was sufficient, or did he feel they weren't fit to learn it, or did he still not finish teaching them the 7 Freak's martial arts?

[LuNaR]

good post above btw, i like ur math equation, but on ur question...

so wat ur trying to say is we should teach calculus to 1st grader before they are able to add and subtract. that is the problem :P

[Edmund Lau]

good post above btw, i like ur math equation, but on ur question...

so wat ur trying to say is we should teach calculus to 1st grader before they are able to add and subtract. that is the problem :P

Haha! Of course not!

I think the above post made me sound like I was criticizing GJ's teaching method rather than Guo Fu/Wu brother's attitude towards learning. I was really talking about people who are forever harping on the obvious/basics/roots without the hunger of moving on towards greater heights. This is especially prevalent among those who consider themselves "orthodox". They are too busy defending the legitimacy of their "position" rather than striving towards greater understanding. For example, Hua Shan Sect and the sword-qi feud. Each party trying to prove the other party "wrong/unorthodox/heretical". And in such instances, it's usually a matter of victory/defeat. The "qi"-denomination won out (using dishonorable means) and then declare their "position" to be the legitimate one. All the while, the self-exiled Feng Qingyang was learning from other sources the supreme sword-skill (to hell with positions - this guy was interested in the "tao" of the sword itself).

We live in a world where people do aspire to be a "da zong shi" (Grand Master) - preferring the comfort of being in the majority of self-congratulatory herd. Many aspire only to "respectability-by-association". Take Yelu Qi, for example. He's one of the characters in the JY canon that I despise most (maybe because he reminds me of my brother-in-law! haha!). This guy was Zhou Botong's disciple (making him same-ranking as Qiu Chuji and Ma Yu). When he was a kid, he was very mischievous and ZBT loved him. Then he grew up and matters like "legitimate behaviour" started to matter a lot to him. After all, one needs to be "responsible" right? "Pragmatic" right? "Patriotic" right? When he first meet him in the novel, his skills were arguably superior to Yang Guo's (meaning that should he strive to better himself, he probably has as much opportunity to equal/exceed YG). His teacher is ZBT, his in-laws are Huang Yaoshi, GJ, and HR. What then did he do? Oh, he became "administrative-assistant" to GJ/HR (by taking over the "administrative-duties" of running the Beggar Sect) and "punching-bag" to Guo Fu. No, he wasn't a bad person by any standards. He's just an example of an uninteresting, bland character but he was "respectable" due to his association with the Guo family. Why, oh why?

I think I've always admired people who are "kuang wang" (arrogantly rebellious/unconventional) rather than those who play by the rules. A lot of Liang Yu Sheng's characters were in the "Yelu Qi" mold - and that's probably why LYS's novels are not as popular as JY's. I like people who aspire to greatness through unconventional means rather than merely "respectable-by-association". I admire people who spit in the face of authority and convention rather than remain in the safe embrace of the herd. Over the years, I've learnt that "roots" do not matter as much as the "choices" we make in life (very Sartre/existentialist, eh?) Usually, adherence to roots/acceptable modes of thought/behavior merely means repeating the views of successful middle-aged people. Finally, people who'd die for what really matters - love, honor rather than conventions, love for life and compassion rather than blind loyalty/patriotism.

My real attitude to learning is really quite similar to Huang Yaoshi's. HR mentioned this to GJ. HYS would be reading the classics by Confucius and Mencius. There are places where he will nod in agreement, or be ecstatically excited because of their depth. There are also places where he will be so angered as to fling the book away shouting, "Dog shit rubbish"! That kind of thing. In short, I am not against roots/basics but slavish devotion to roots/basics at the expense of free, progressive thinking.

~ Edmund Lau

[Ken Cheng]

7 Mongol/Jin Soldier = 1 Yang Tie Xin/Guo Xiao Tian

I think that each of these guys can handle more than just seven soldiers. Didn't Yeung Teet Sum singlehandedly take down at least three times that number while protecting his brother's wife, his own wife, and himself?

[Ken Cheng]

slavish devotion to roots/basics at the expense of free, progressive thinking.

In other words, Edmund, "Describe traditional Chinese culture in eleven words or fewer."

[Edmund Lau]

In other words, Edmund, "Describe traditional Chinese culture in eleven words or fewer."

Nietzsche said that the most frequently repeated admonition Chinese parents tell their kids is "xiao xin" (meaning "be careful" but literally means "to make your heart small"). Therefore, Chinese culture/people is cursed with the belief that "smaller hearts/minds" = "safety".

Many Chinese critics/scholars were not responding to JY novels favorably in the 1960s/70s (even Liang Yu Sheng, JY's close friend and fellow wuxia writer). The usual criticism was that JY was too "Westernized" in his thinking - as if there is any particularly innate virtue in being "Eastern". And Ken, I think given our English-educated background (or at least bi-lingual/tri-lingual), we tend to appreciate JY novels from a rather different angle as many purely-Chinese-educated fans (believe me, I've visited many Chinese-only forums and have never been especially comfortable with them).

I think there is truth in that JY was indeed more "Westernized" compared to his predecessors like Bai Yu, Wang Du Lu, and even Liang Yu Sheng (but probably not as much as the latter Gu Long and Huang Yi). But I don't like such categorizations. I think a lot of values are really universal and we really should have more objectivity in this. Defining something as more "Western" or more "Eastern" is really a debate about matters of taste. [And we all should know where that kind of discussion leads with the unending YG vs GJ, HR vs XLN threads here... haha!]

~ Edmund Lau

p/s - the 7 soldiers = 1 Yang Tiexin comparison was only an approximation. I've always viewed Yang Tiexin as only a more courageous/well-trained soldier. He's not even really a martial artist. JY does make a distinction between a trained martial-arts practitioner like Qiu Chuji and a strong soldier (think Guan Yu in "3 Kingdoms" or Xiang Yu the great conqueror). YTX killed many soldiers because of the desperation of his situation - the soldiers were only "doing their job", hardly worth risking their neck. In other words, YTX was in "berserker mode"!

[Ken Cheng]

And Ken, I think given our English-educated background (or at least bi-lingual/tri-lingual), we tend to appreciate JY novels from a rather different angle as many purely-Chinese-educated fans (believe me, I've visited many Chinese-only forums and have never been especially comfortable with them).

Yeah...not to sow seeds of discord or anything, but I've heard *rumors* over the years that some folks on those Chinese-only forums mock the people here at SPCNET and the old Yushy Wuxia Forums because we discuss wuxia in English, and therefore we can't possibly really "get" wuxia.

Are there really such condescending attitudes over there?

[Edmund Lau]

Yeah...not to sow seeds of discord or anything, but I've heard *rumors* over the years that some folks on those Chinese-only forums mock the people here at SPCNET and the old Yushy Wuxia Forums because we discuss wuxia in English, and therefore we can't possibly really "get" wuxia.

Are there really such condescending attitudes over there?

Of course! And I've been called a "banana-man" (yellow on the outside, white on the inside) for decades! Let's just leave them to their own devices...

~ Edmund Lau

[Ken Cheng]

Of course! And I've been called a "banana-man" (yellow on the outside, white on the inside) for decades! Let's just leave them to their own devices...

~ Edmund Lau

I'm not going to name any names, but there used to be a regular poster here at SPCNET (didn't really discuss wuxia much; more of a TV series fan) who seemingly couldn't get through a post without adding some gratuitous comment about how "Westernized" Chinese were "stupid" and couldn't possibly understand *REAL* Chinese culture, which is why his point of view was always better than theirs.

I finally banned the creep.

[Edmund Lau]

I'm not going to name any names, but there used to be a regular poster here at SPCNET (didn't really discuss wuxia much; more of a TV series fan) who seemingly couldn't get through a post without adding some gratuitous comment about how "Westernized" Chinese were "stupid" and couldn't possibly understand *REAL* Chinese culture, which is why his point of view was always better than theirs.

I finally banned the creep.

You know those *REAL* Chinese people who used to insult me? Interestingly, I'm usually seen reading Chuang-Tzu or ShiJi (Annals of the Historian) in the original Chinese and they are usually seen reading Harry Potter/DaVinci Code/Anthony Robbins' self-help books in Chinese translation!

'Nuff said!

~ Edmund Lau

[HuangYushi]

the problem is that they were not taught even in their 30-40s, even when they were well fit to learn 1yang finger while in their 20s. did GJ not bother to teach them higher skills since he thought 1yang finger was sufficient, or did he feel they weren't fit to learn it, or did he still not finish teaching them the 7 Freak's martial arts?

Before Guo Jing is taken to task for not teaching the Wu brothers the 18 Palms even when they were in their 30s, the heritage of the 18 Palms themselves should be considered.

The earliest record (that I can recall) of the 18 Palms in Jin Yong's world is found in DGSD, where it was known as the 28 Palms (3rd edition). Duan Yu found a note on a labeled shelf in the Jade Cavern under the Boundless Mountain as a martial arts technique belonging to the Beggars' Gang.

In subsequent stories along the timeline between the Northern Song and the Yuan Dynasties, the Palms were practiced *almost* exclusive by the (ex-)leaders of the Beggars' Gang --- I say *almost* because Guo Jing was the exception. (The other recorded practitioners were Xiao Feng, Hong Qigong, Yelu Qi, and Shi Huolong. I can't recall off-hand if Lu Youjiao learnt it too). A couple of high-ranking members in the Beggars' Gang were taught a move here and there by Hong Qigong as a reward (see LOCH http://wuxiapedia.com/novels/jin_yon...ng_hero/book_2 ), and that's about it.

Therefore, I'd like to suggest that Guo Jing did not teach the Wu brothers (or his son Guo Polu, for that matter) the 18 Palms because Guo Jing himself was not the leader of the Beggars' Gang at any point in his life, and therefore had no authority to pass the technique on to individuals (the Wu brothers and Guo Polu) who also had no leadership position in the Gang or made any significant contribution to it (like the member who earned a move as a reward from Hong Qigong).

In the case of Yelu Qi, he (Yelu) had every right to learn it *after* he became the leader of the Beggars' Gang, and the only person left who could teach it to him by then was Guo Jing. Again, this was an exception, rather than a rule.

On the other hand, the Wu brothers could learn the Yiyang Finger because of their heritage/lineage as descendants of Wu Santong, a disciple of Yideng. The Yiyang Finger was originally meant only for male descendants of the Duan Family, but Yideng changed the ancestral rule when the threat of Ouyang Feng loomed. (see http://wuxiapedia.com/novels/jin_yon.../single_finger for partial information).

HYS

[Ken Cheng]

You know those *REAL* Chinese people who used to insult me? Interestingly, I'm usually seen reading Chuang-Tzu or ShiJi (Annals of the Historian) in the original Chinese and they are usually seen reading Harry Potter/DaVinci Code/Anthony Robbins' self-help books in Chinese translation!

'Nuff said!

~ Edmund Lau

Ironically, the folks at at least one of the all-Chinese wuxia forums thought so little of our English-language wuxia discussions that I got one of my thread topics *ripped off* for one of their threads. It was a thread about how lousy Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung's disciples were, and it got translated *word for word* in a Chinese-only wuxia forum.

Guess they don't think too highly of us English-writing wuxia fans, eh?

[CC]

Ironically, the folks at at least one of the all-Chinese wuxia forums thought so little of our English-language wuxia discussions that I got one of my thread topics *ripped off* for one of their threads. It was a thread about how lousy Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung's disciples were, and it got translated *word for word* in a Chinese-only wuxia forum.

Guess they don't think too highly of us English-writing wuxia fans, eh?

The Heathens!!! Let me go over there and educate them by illuminating upon their ignorant souls the Glory of SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan!!!

[Edmund Lau]

Before Guo Jing is taken to task for not teaching the Wu brothers the 18 Palms even when they were in their 30s, the heritage of the 18 Palms themselves should be considered.

The earliest record (that I can recall) of the 18 Palms in Jin Yong's world is found in DGSD, where it was known as the 28 Palms (3rd edition). Duan Yu found a note on a labeled shelf in the Jade Cavern under the Boundless Mountain as a martial arts technique belonging to the Beggars' Gang.

In subsequent stories along the timeline between the Northern Song and the Yuan Dynasties, the Palms were practiced *almost* exclusive by the (ex-)leaders of the Beggars' Gang --- I say *almost* because Guo Jing was the exception. (The other recorded practitioners were Xiao Feng, Hong Qigong, Yelu Qi, and Shi Huolong. I can't recall off-hand if Lu Youjiao learnt it too). A couple of high-ranking members in the Beggars' Gang were taught a move here and there by Hong Qigong as a reward (see LOCH http://wuxiapedia.com/novels/jin_yon...ng_hero/book_2 ), and that's about it.

Therefore, I'd like to suggest that Guo Jing did not teach the Wu brothers (or his son Guo Polu, for that matter) the 18 Palms because Guo Jing himself was not the leader of the Beggars' Gang at any point in his life, and therefore had no authority to pass the technique on to individuals (the Wu brothers and Guo Polu) who also had no leadership position in the Gang or made any significant contribution to it (like the member who earned a move as a reward from Hong Qigong).

In the case of Yelu Qi, he (Yelu) had every right to learn it *after* he became the leader of the Beggars' Gang, and the only person left who could teach it to him by then was Guo Jing. Again, this was an exception, rather than a rule.

On the other hand, the Wu brothers could learn the Yiyang Finger because of their heritage/lineage as descendants of Wu Santong, a disciple of Yideng. The Yiyang Finger was originally meant only for male descendants of the Duan Family, but Yideng changed the ancestral rule when the threat of Ouyang Feng loomed. (see http://wuxiapedia.com/novels/jin_yon.../single_finger for partial information).

HYS

In that case, it really was a good thing that YG did not become GJ's disciple. He'd probably learn only some Jiang Nan 7 Freaks skills.

Thanks for your insight on "Xiang Long 18 Palms". In that case, Hong 7 Gong really is like the Biblical Esau who sold his birthright for a meal! He actually taught an outsider "Xiang Long 18 Palms" for several meals! Note that at that time, Hong 7 Gong wasn't officially GJ's teacher yet. Mu Nianci saved a fellow beggar and Hong only taught her some basic skills. Huang Rong was a great cook and Hong ended up giving GJ his ultimate skill!

Back to my original contention, GJ did not really need to teach his disciples "Xiang Long 18 Palms" if that is considered a betrayal of Beggar Sect principles. With his understanding of "9-Yin" and martial arts in general, GJ was already very much a Grand Master ("da zong shi") in his own right. His disciples should be at least in the Mei Chaofeng/Chen Xuanfeng level rather than the Wu brothers level. And this really had a lot to do with him teaching them "useless" skills.

Let me qualify what I meant by "useless" skills. The unwritten rule in wuxia fiction is that usually the top martial arts practitioners in an wuxia novel is someone who has mastered a certain "palm", "boxing", "sword" or "sabre" skill. Unlike historical/war novels like "Water Margin" and "3 Kingdoms" where the heroes use axe, cudgel, spear, bow/arrow, etc. Another emphasis of wuxia is on internal energy rather than ferocity in war. This means that usually people who employ weird weapons are never the top practitioners in wuxia fiction. Example, people who use iron-galls (Zhou Zhongying in "Book & Sword"), chess-board and chess-pieces (Mu Sang in "Sword Stained With Royal Blood"), pipe for attacking opponents' acu-points (Master Tian Qi in SSRB also), giant pole (Feng Tian Nan in "Young Flying Fox"), hook and brush (Zhang Cui San in HSDS), etc. They may be good fighters but never great ones. Jiang Nan 7 Freaks use the weirdest weapons imaginable - fan, walking-stick, boat-paddle, hoe, fishing-net, weight-measuring pole, etc. I feel that Jiang Nan 7 Freaks were courageous and eccentric (but not really very bright). They actually try too hard to be "Freak-ish" (considered "cool" in those less-enlightened days) but not hard enough to be good martial artists. It is no fault of Huang Yaoshi that when HR tried to introduce them to him, his reply was - "I have no interest in knowing such mundane characters!"

My contention was that, GJ should have concentrated on the really good skills and taught them to his disciples (with the possible exclusion of "Xiang Long 18 Palms"). But owing to his blind gratitute for his late teachers and his slavish devotion to the tenet "one should not forget one's roots - however worthless they may be", that proved detrimental to the progress of his disciples. GJ is a great hero but a poor teacher. Many professors and philosophers were like that as well. But of course, learning is a two-way process. The people really at fault were the followers (and by that, I include also the unambitious blokes in Quanzhen Sect - why is it that the only one that came close to Wang Chong Yang's level was his crazy junior Zhou Botong and the renegade disciple Yang Guo?)

Ken used to mention that there was a steady decline in the level of martial arts from DGSD era to the late Qing era. Perhaps one of the biggest factor contributing to that decline was this slavish devotion to old ideas rather than aspirations to be the Grand Master of the new generation?

~ Edmund Lau

[CFT]

I concur largely with HuangYushi though it is undeniable there is a serious question mark over GJ's abilities as a teacher.

The question of roots/basics - just as GJ is not free to teach the "Xiang Long 18 Palms", I don't think he is free to teach the QZ inner power basics either. Although I would have thought that 9Yin has its own entry-level inner power cultivation.

As basic physical techniques the 7-Freaks martial arts should be more than adequate as long as GJ ironed out all the contradicting teaching methodologies. There really would have been no point in teaching the children "Xiang Long 18 Palms" as it is far from an entry-level art. They would just be empty postures without an inner power base. Now YG could use Ouyang Feng's "Toad Skill" quite effectively which would suggest that "unorthodox" skills are superior. But really it is just a matter of when you see results from your training. The "final" result is the same, though arguably more dangerous to follow the unorthodox path.

I think that 9Yin had a more profound influence on GJ than even "Xiang Long 18 Palms". Without a doubt XL18P established GJ as a player and he would have been very good, maybe even a great, if he had continued on this path. But with 9Yin as an intellectual base, never mind practicing it too, he started to see martial philosophies in action whenever the greats dueled with each other.

EDIT: added comments in response to Edmund's recent post. Good to see some more provocative posts. Welcome back!

I think H7G considered the "Dog Beating Stick" as his ultimate skill, and that definitely was kept "in house". XL18P seemed to be a more tradeable commodity though no one else benefited to the extent that GJ did. At the end of the day, I think H7G regarded GJ as a worthy pupil, even if he was a bit too straight-up.

[Patudo]

Hmmm.

From
http://wuxiapedia.com/novels/jin_yon...k_2/chapter_12

However, though Guo Jing’s martial arts were high, he had yet to pass on most of his skills to his disciples. He himself understood the theories of advanced martial arts but when he was passing it on, he wasn’t able to express clearly its meanings. The Wu brother’s natural endowments were just average to normal, how much could they learn in just a few years?...

The Wu brothers were shocked and angry, although they were empty handed they were not afraid. Wu Dunru’s left hand hung horizontally in the air, holding the position of a stance of “Eighteen Dragon Subduing Palms”. Wu Xiuwen’s right hand hung down, his left index finger slightly crooked; as soon as the enemy attacks he would use the “Solitary Yang Finger”.

Hou Dou saw that these stances looked serious, he was wary and didn’t dare to look lightly upon them, he thought, “Winning up to this point is enough, there is no need to refuse something good, asking for more is not in my interests.”

The “Eighteen Dragon Subduing Palms” and “Solitary Yang Finger” are first class skills in the world of martial arts, though the Wu brothers’ internal energy was weak, the stances they put out were perfect. When normal people saw it they didn’t think much of it, but in the trained eyes of Huo Dou, he knew that it wasn’t that simple, he laughed and then bowed with his hands, he said, “Please sit down, we are just trying to find a winner, not fighting to the death.” His tone sounded a lot more polite.

[Dennis Chen]

I think Guo Jing would have reached Greats level practicing Quanzhen martial arts. It was really 9 ying that made Guo Jing into a Great so quickly, not Xiang Long Shi Ba Zhang (which Guo Jing originally used Quanzhen internal to power).

[JamesG]

I think that Guo Jing would only be a good teacher to someone who showed the same total dedication to learning martial arts that he had. Guo Fu and the Wu brothers never had that dedication so he felt obligated to teach only the basics to them. Why waste the time trying to teach pupils that don't want to learn?