Chastity in Wuxia.

[Trien Chieu]

Murong Fu is an idiot. He could have settled down with WYY and have a great life instead of trying to rebuild his long lost kingdom.

色字头上一把刀。

They made it so that the heroes are aware (be it conscious or subconscious) of it, and thus kept away from it.

Normal men likes women, and likes the company of women. So to make the heroes look a cut above them, and to appear much more gentlemanly and good (sleek clean type), they have to be void of that weakness.

There are said to be four vices that men generally fall under, and they are 吃喝嫖赌 (eat, drink, prostitution, gambling). Note that the sex part is represented by prostitution, which debases the morality a proper hero should embody. Ancient social rules also dictate that no marriage=no sex. So, the only outlet for sex is through illicit relationships (which is another term for the very common modern pre-marital sex) or prostitution, both of which would hardly look good for a hero.

You missed something about the FOUR VICES. They are DRINKING, PROSTITUTION, GAMBLING, AND DRUGS. Not much about eating, as everyone needs to eat.

[hoatran]

色字头上一把刀。
There are said to be four vices that men generally fall under, and they are 吃喝嫖赌 (eat, drink, prostitution, gambling). Note that the sex part is represented by prostitution, which debases the morality a proper hero should embody. Ancient social rules also dictate that no marriage=no sex. So, the only outlet for sex is through illicit relationships (which is another term for the very common modern pre-marital sex) or prostitution, both of which would hardly look good for a hero.

Thanks for the info. I'm not sure what's the problem with eating. Is it eating too much? Drinking on the other hand did not seem to be a vice in Yin Jong wuxia world. Men who could drink a lot are praised for that ability. I wonder if internal energy can protect the liver from a lot of alcoholic drinking. It was even ok for an underage girl like Guo Xiang to drink in public.
Regarding to gambling, very little was said about it. But as for pre-marital sex, I would not put too much stock into that moral code. The Victorian era in Europe also emphasized a lot about chaste, but in reality, there was a lot of prostitution. I think the ancient Chinese tried to attack the problem by marrying the kids off early. The rich and powerful also took advantage of the poor and the weak using the euphemism of taking girls, women to "serve" the master or in reality it was more like to be raped by the master. Of course there was a lot of brothels in the Duke of Mount Deer story, but in ROCH, there was one mention of a brothel as well. Also if you paid attention, there was never a suggestion that men going to a brothel is bad. There was no derogatory term used for the men who went there. So was it only the lesser men who go to those places, or the "heroes" also go there? This is not to say the great wuxia heroes of that days or Yin Jong world do not rise above those vices, but if Yang Guo and Xiao Feng are real people, then I would take those claims with some skepticism. Those guys seem to be too street wise to not take relief once in a while.

[Guo Xiang]

You missed something about the FOUR VICES. They are DRINKING, PROSTITUTION, GAMBLING, AND DRUGS. Not much about eating, as everyone needs to eat.

Don't be stupid. Eating is actually part of the Chinese four-character vices standard. And by eating it doesn't mean general eating, because people needs to need. So naturally it means EXCESSIVE EATING.

Men who could drink a lot are praised for that ability. I wonder if internal energy can protect the liver from a lot of alcoholic drinking. It was even ok for an underage girl like Guo Xiang to drink in public.

This is about excessiveness too. One should also consider what alcohol does to the body and mind when there is too much intake. Worse scenario is that it can affect a family, or causes death. Therefore it is considered a vice.

But of course, whenever has any of those heroes gotten negatively drunk? They don't, and it simply shows they are way above the average men.

Regarding to gambling, very little was said about it

Is it okay then to assume the heroes do not gamble?

I think the ancient Chinese tried to attack the problem by marrying the kids off early.

No. It's life expectancy issue. This happens worldwide in the old days, not just China.

The rich and powerful also took advantage of the poor and the weak using the euphemism of taking girls, women to "serve" the master or in reality it was more like to be raped by the master.

Another proof of the hero standard - did Guo Jing and co. do that? Is it even possible they would do that? NOPE.

Of course there was a lot of brothels in the Duke of Mount Deer story, but in ROCH, there was one mention of a brothel as well.

I don't know about the brothel part in ROCH or what it's about. But DMD shouldn't be used as an example, especially considering the main male lead Wei Xiaobao is a rapist and anti-hero.

Also if you paid attention, there was never a suggestion that men going to a brothel is bad.

The term I named already degrades the behaviour. There is no need for any suggestion because it is a standard moral code, and since prostitution in itself is viewed negatively, its patrons are not viewed in a very positive light either. People are simply expected to satisfy their own needs with their legal partners.

There was no derogatory term used for the men who went there. So was it only the lesser men who go to those places, or the "heroes" also go there?

The only wuxia heroes I know who frequent brothels are Gulong characters. I'm not very sure about Jinyong heroes. But Gulong has never been known to hold women in high esteem anyway. From his writings it appeared that all women to him = prostitutes or convenient bed companions, so going to brothels or not may not have mattered that much.

This is not to say the great wuxia heroes of that days or Yin Jong world do not rise above those vices, but if Yang Guo and Xiao Feng are real people, then I would take those claims with some skepticism. Those guys seem to be too street wise to not take relief once in a while.

The way I see it, they've been written in such a way that they do not partake in such activities. I'd be very surprised if they do. That is what we've been talking about - the heroes are written to be above the average man - very high quality men that knows how to 洁身自爱 keep themselves "clean" and love themselves.

[kidd]

But as for pre-marital sex, I would not put too much stock into that moral code. The Victorian era in Europe also emphasized a lot about chaste, but in reality, there was a lot of prostitution. I think the ancient Chinese tried to attack the problem by marrying the kids off early. The rich and powerful also took advantage of the poor and the weak using the euphemism of taking girls, women to "serve" the master or in reality it was more like to be raped by the master. Of course there was a lot of brothels in the Duke of Mount Deer story, but in ROCH, there was one mention of a brothel as well. Also if you paid attention, there was never a suggestion that men going to a brothel is bad. There was no derogatory term used for the men who went there. So was it only the lesser men who go to those places, or the "heroes" also go there? This is not to say the great wuxia heroes of that days or Yin Jong world do not rise above those vices, but if Yang Guo and Xiao Feng are real people, then I would take those claims with some skepticism. Those guys seem to be too street wise to not take relief once in a while.

Please note that this is wuxia fantasy not real life. Wuxia fantasy is idealistic. Their heroes adhere to idealistic morality or encompass that virtues. In wuxia, a hero is one who can withhold from sex. It's not realistic, but, that's how it goes in wuxia world. Secondly, even though 'eat, drink, prostitution, gambling' are all vices, they have a different degree of acceptance. I don't know why. In wuxia, the level of acceptance seem to be like this (from low to high)

prostitution - gambling - eat/drink.

So, in wuxia, for a hero, drinking and excessive eating is still ok. Less so for gambling, but, worse is going to prostitute/having promiscuous sex.

Note: please exclude Gu Long and Huang Yi's work from this tradition.

[kidd]

The only wuxia heroes I know who frequent brothels are Gulong characters. I'm not very sure about Jinyong heroes. But Gulong has never been known to hold women in high esteem anyway. From his writings it appeared that all women to him = prostitutes or convenient bed companions, so going to brothels or not may not have mattered that much.

There are nice women in his writing too. Da Wan, Su Ying, Tie Xin Lan, Shuang Shuang, Tian Si Si.

Btw, he change his writing style because of a comment from a woman. So, I don't think he thinks that lowly of women.

[Trien Chieu]

the heroes are written to be above the average man - very high quality men that knows how to 洁身自爱 keep themselves "clean" and love themselves.

It's sad that most people these days don't live to that high quality. Too many people just live for the moment.

[tape]

It's silly to put sex on such a high pedestal and allot it more importance than it logically deserves.

[Trien Chieu]

It's silly to put sex on such a high pedestal and allot it more importance than it logically deserves.

Well, even in these days, it's still very important in some countries. You can get death penalty for adultery.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/...ex.html?hpt=C1

[Ian Liew]

I always thought the four vices were piu dou yam chui - womanising, gambling, drinking and um.. blowing (which I thought was smoking, but probably means opium or something).

[kidd]

I always thought the four vices were piu dou yam chui - womanising, gambling, drinking and um.. blowing (which I thought was smoking, but probably means opium or something).

I thought the cantonese has 5 vices? 'piu dou yam dong chui' (嫖賭飲蕩吹)?

What does 'dong' means?

[CFT]

'dong' is women's loose sexual behaviour.

[Ian Liew]

I thought the cantonese has 5 vices? 'piu dou yam dong chui' (嫖賭飲蕩吹)?

What does 'dong' means?

Maybe it's piu, dou, yamtong (drink soup), chui? =)

[kidd]

Maybe it's piu, dou, yamtong (drink soup), chui? =)

[smurf120]

Is "dong" like yau dong or loitering? Like not finding work, being lazy, and asking others for money? I'm just guessing.

[Trien Chieu]

I always thought the four vices were piu dou yam chui - womanising, gambling, drinking and um.. blowing (which I thought was smoking, but probably means opium or something).

Yeah, I think so too. Eating is never a vice and indeed encouraging because people believe that eating is a gain. Whatever you ate will be yours forever.

[Ken Cheng]

Yeah, I think so too. Eating is never a vice and indeed encouraging because people believe that eating is a gain. Whatever you ate will be yours forever.

Well, plain old *eating* is not a vice, but Abrahamic law (observed by Jews, Christians, and Muslims) does identify "gluttony" as a sin.

[sandy1]

Well, plain old *eating* is not a vice, but Abrahamic law (observed by Jews, Christians, and Muslims) does identify "gluttony" as a sin.

Hong Qiqong surely qualifies as a glutton under that definition, or was the ancient Chinese standard more lenient than the Judeo-Christian one? As for the other vices, Xiao Feng and Linghu Chong love to drink, although Xiao Feng's drinking seems to be a function of his alpha maleness, rather than a potentially embarassing habit, as it is (occasionally) for the latter. Linghu Chong had been known to indulge in a game of dice, too. However, it seems that all of Jin Yong's male main characters are chaste before marriage, except WXB and Xu Zhu (actually, I'm not sure about him as I've never read the novel). Are there any other male main character in JY who are unchaste before marriage?

[Ken Cheng]

Hong Qiqong surely qualifies as a glutton under that definition, or was the ancient Chinese standard more lenient than the Judeo-Christian one? As for the other vices, Xiao Feng and Linghu Chong love to drink, although Xiao Feng's drinking seems to be a function of his alpha maleness, rather than a potentially embarassing habit, as it is (occasionally) for the latter. Linghu Chong had been known to indulge in a game of dice, too. However, it seems that all of Jin Yong's male main characters are chaste before marriage, except WXB and Xu Zhu (actually, I'm not sure about him as I've never read the novel). Are there any other male main character in JY who are unchaste before marriage?

I would venture to observe that the Abrahamic tradition is more stringent about gluttony than Chinese tradition is. Even among different Jewish, Christian, and Muslims groups, however, there's disagreement over just how bad gluttony is. Would it be a venial or cardinal sin? You'd probably get different answers from different people.

[sandy1]

I would venture to observe that the Abrahamic tradition is more stringent about gluttony than Chinese tradition is. Even among different Jewish, Christian, and Muslims groups, however, there's disagreement over just how bad gluttony is. Would it be a venial or cardinal sin? You'd probably get different answers from different people.

I think it's a cardinal sin in Catholicism, although it's rarely being preached about in church. The sexual stuffs get way more attention. I don't know about the Protestant churches. In the Chinese tradition, would Hong Qiqong be considered a glutton, or is his love for food merely considered a harmless hobby? If a Xia is required to be above sexual temptations, why is he not required to be above the temptations of the other vices?

[Ken Cheng]

In the Chinese tradition, would Hong Qiqong be considered a glutton, or is his love for food merely considered a harmless hobby?

I'm leaning towards "harmless" hobby; people in pre-modern times knew much less about the effects of overeating on general health (they weren't completely ignorant, but they didn't have it down to a calorie-counting, cholesterol-measuring science like we have now). Moreover, in pre-modern times, few people *could* overeat with regularity. The extremely wealthy and powerful could, but 99% of people felt fortunate just to have anything to eat most of the time.

If a Xia is required to be above sexual temptations, why is he not required to be above the temptations of the other vices?

Sex is different. If one overindulges in food or alcohol, generally speaking, one hurts only his own health (although if one is the family breadwinner, there will obviously be a domino effect of repercussions). With sex, however, no matter what, there are going to be multiple parties involved (the man, the woman, and the child that might result).