View Poll Results: How good is Huang Shang, martial arts wise?

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  • > late ROCH Greats level (> Guo Jing, Yang Guo, Huang Yaoshi, Zhou Botong, etc)

    10 55.56%
  • late ROCH Greats level

    6 33.33%
  • Pre-16 years ROCH Greats level (Hong Qigong, Ouyang Feng)

    0 0%
  • late LOCH Greats level (2nd Huashan Tournament)

    0 0%
  • Pre-LOCH Greats level (1st Huashan Tournament)

    0 0%
  • < Pre-LOCH Greats level

    0 0%
  • I HAVE ANOTHER OPINION - please indicate in this topic

    2 11.11%
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Thread: The official "How good is Huang Shang" thread

  1. #1
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Default The official "How good is Huang Shang" thread

    It's been a really, really long time since we talked about some formerly popular topics, among them is the martial arts level of Huang Shang. So, without further due, let's devote our attention to this matter.

    Well, how good is he ?!

    Well, I have my opinion about that, but what good is one person's opinion? Let's discuss it in detail.

    To kick things off, here is some previously assembled information about Huang Shang. The first part was written by Laviathan.

    ---------------------------------------

    During the reign of Emperor Huizong, all Taoist manuscripts throughout the Empire were gathered by royal edict. The number of texts consisted of 5481 scrolls, and Emperor Huizong ordered Huang Shang to supervise the printing of the compilation of the Taoist Canon, the Zhenghe wanshou daozang. Huang Shang therefore had to read the entire canon in order to check misprinted characters, and after a few years he completely understood the Taoist way of martial arts and became an accomplished fighter. The Taoist Canon was printed in the period of 1116-1117.

    the Taoist Emperor Huizong ordered Huang Shang to destroy the heretic Ming Cult. The Song army was defeated by the Ming Cultists, and the enraged Huang Shang challenged the Ming Cult martial arts experts to duel. Huang Shang then killed several Guardian Lords and Ming Heralds.

    However, many of those who were killed by Huang Shang were originally members of great martial arts clans and their relatives and friends went to Huang Shang for revenge. Greatly outnumbered, Huang Shang was wounded and fled. These martial artists then killed Huang Shang's entire family.

    Huang Shang then hid himself in the mountains and analysed all the techniques of his opponents, in order to find ways to counter them. His enemies were great in number and all came from different fighting schools, so Huang Shang must develop a martial art to surpass all thse styles. After more than 40 years, Huang Shang finally reached a stage in which he could singlehandedly defeat all his enemies together, and he re-appeared out of seclusion. Yet, all of his enemies had passed away except for an old lady who was still a teenage girl when Huang Shang first met her. This old lady was very ill and dying, and Huang Shang realised that vengeance was futile. (In the Third Edition, Huang Shang cared for the old lady untill she passed away)

    The Art of Nine Yin, therefore, was meant to defeat all the martial arts schools that Huang Shang had encountered.


    .....NOW.....

    In LOCH, the book of Nine Yin caused great chaos among the highest achievers of Martial Arts. Everyone wanted a piece of it: Even the great Wang Chongyang went for it (perhaps not out of greed, but still, he sought it). To be able to create a style that singlehandedly overcomes all of your enemies, and then to have it be the focus of everyone's attention in wulin generations later, is surely one of the most profound achievements in Jin Yong's universe. Let's analyze Huang Shang's achievements further:

    1) Killing Ming Cult's lords 40 years ago - in HSDS, all 4 Ming Cult Guardian Lords have roughly equal martial arts level. Can Zhang Sanfeng or Zhang Wuji, 40 years before their peak, duel the lords PLUS other cult experts, and kill several of the lords? I highly, highly doubt it (we know Zhang Wuji wouldn't be able to, since he wouldn't be born yet!).

    2) Creating an all-encompassing style - who else in the Jin Yong universe has CREATED a style FROM SCRATCH, which can overcome almost all other known styles in combat? Dugu Qiubai and Zhang Sanfeng may have achieved this honor, while Wang Chongyang couldn't even counter the style of the Ancient Tomb.

    3) Center of attention - Huang Shang's creation was deeply treasured by future generations. It is a complete system with impressive healing methods. After Zhang Sanfeng created Taiji or Dugu Qiubai created his stuff, there wasn't known struggle or endless bloodshed to obtain them. In all of Jin Yong's universe, I can only think of YJJ, 6MSJ, and Sunflower Volumes as sought-after treasures. But I don't think any of these manuals were as sought-after as Nine Yin.

    As a side note, there was an expert reader here who considered 9 Yin to be the greatest art ever. He noted: there is a possibility that Sweeper Monk can overcome 9 Yin...

    All things considered, I see no evidence for Huang Shang not being one of the absolute cream of the crop in Jin Yong's canon.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  2. #2
    Senior Member odbayarb2000's Avatar
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    I totally agree with your statements.
    He deserves the reputation to be ranked together with Damo and other great creators.
    "Big Hero Linghu kills frogs with the Dugu Nine Swords!”


  3. #3
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    My impression was that he killed those guys 1v1, and then they came as a group. He could not withstand them, so fled.
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

  4. #4
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    I must make a confession.

    The article that I posted was an advertisement for a previous Survivor Game. And, as you may know, the premise of a Survivor Game advertisement is to glorify the advertised subject to the highest magnitude possible.

    Therefore, although the article is completely accurate (to the best of my knowledge), it explains "how good I want Huang Shang to be" more than "how good I really think Huang Shang is".

    BUT, as general information, I think the article serves its purpose
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  5. #5
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    My impression was that he killed those guys 1v1, and then they came as a group. He could not withstand them, so fled.
    I never thought of it from that angle. You could be right.

    (The beauty of open discussions is that you learn to look at things in new ways from other senior members.)

    And, if your impression is correct, that would somewhat reduce Huang Shang's divinity in my book.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  6. #6
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    There is insufficient info on how Huang Shang's 9 Yin acheives the aim of 'defeating all his enemies' style'.

    Does it do it the same way the Demon Cult Elders designed the 5 Mountain Sword Breaking techniques? Or is it more like Taiji and DG9J which uses a general theory to try to overcome everything? Or is it more a specific style which suits HS best e.g. Dragon Palms, 6MSJ, Bi Xie Jian Fa type super arts mastered to a high degree.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  7. #7
    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    9 Yin + Huang Shang = defeat of all his enemies TOGETHER. The question is how many enemies he had and their calibre. If say he killed 5 Ming Cult elders, that's a crazy number of their friends/family he have to fight at the same time.

    XF could have taken out the whole 300 ppl - some who have similar/above those Ming cult seen in HSDS. 9 Yin did have theory on fighting groups no?

    On point 2 - one can argue it was based on his experience and his martial arts background not entirely from scratch. OYF countered the whole dog beating stick. He's in the same calibre of other inventionists.

    On point 3 - taiqi and DG arts mentioned are somewhat different to those prized arts you mentioned. Those arts had weaker people defending them and a stronger person with strong motive seeking them. Wudang was always powerful enough to defend taiqi and DG arts were obscure to the point of no one knowing Dugu.

    Tongue in cheek - 40 years seclusion do a lot to a person's head. Surely he must have known many of his enemies will perish. Losing complete track of time.

    One would assume he was born a scholar to be asked to read and supervise. Yet in a few years he was able to understand the taoist way and become accomplished in martial arts. That's some prodigy.

    On that note of being called accomplished - that doesn't sound that convincing, how good was he 40 years ago. JY describes many people as an accomplished martial artist.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member dewyloony123's Avatar
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    wow PJ, you're on a roll! I just checked the forum and there were oodles of threads/posts from you. Kudos.

    I'd put Huang Shang a hair above late ROCH Greats. True, he could only take on his enemies 1 on 1 before his 40 year seclusion, and true, people only hankered after his martial arts because they were up for grabs. But I think he's still a fast learner and great innovater--he created a cohesive, comprehensive martial arts system (OYF created a set of moves, but I'm not sure you can say he created a system). That's pretty good. Perhaps Huang Shang's somewhere in the neighborhood of Damo or Zhang Sanfeng or Dugu Qiubai.

  9. #9
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    There is insufficient info on how Huang Shang's 9 Yin acheives the aim of 'defeating all his enemies' style'.

    Does it do it the same way the Demon Cult Elders designed the 5 Mountain Sword Breaking techniques? Or is it more like Taiji and DG9J which uses a general theory to try to overcome everything? Or is it more a specific style which suits HS best e.g. Dragon Palms, 6MSJ, Bi Xie Jian Fa type super arts mastered to a high degree.
    9 Yin doesn't seem like a general theory a la Taiji.

    BUT, I think it's a practical skill similar to Dugu 9 Swords and Tianshan Plum Folding Hands in that each art contains a set of techniques to defeat all other techniques.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  10. #10
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    Since his name is brought up, I still wanted an answer for an old question of mine. Would the complete Ming Cult martial arts of Cheung Mo Kei be able to overcome 9 Yin?

    From what I understand, Huang Shang was able to overcome most of the martial arts he have seen. Yet, he never saw the whole version of Ming Cult's ultimate level 7 martial arts. So is there any chance Cheung Mo Kei martial arts would be able to counter 9 Yin?

    Same thing with Taiji. Would Taiji, something Huang Shang is unable to know, be able to counter 9 Yin?

    I read that 9 Yeung creator had a look at 9 Yin manual right. I am guessing 9 Yeung would be comparable to 9 Yin.

    Was Huang Shang able to overcome YJJ of Shaolin? Or is it at that time, no one from Shaolin learned that, so therefore HS is unable to see how it works.

    With just 9 Yin alone, can Huang Shang adapt to other created martial arts.
    Last edited by Felix; 12-22-07 at 07:11 PM.

  11. #11
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    To Felix:

    Something to keep in mind is that Huang Shang was a government official, not a martial artist. Although he was proficient in the field of martial arts, he did not interact with martial artists. Therefore, chances are low that he would have seen something like Yijin Jing.

    I have a feeling that Huang Shang's opponents' martial arts were not in the advanced theory category. By advanced I mean other Counter-All martial arts like Dugu 9 Swords, Tianshan Plum Folding Hand, Taiji, and Shifting North Star. I doubt his opponents were good enough to learn them. I imagine them to have used conventional attacks like "this fist" and "that kick".

    Therefore, I don't imagine 9 Yin as an art designed to counter advanced martial arts like Qiankun Danuoyi. By the way, I consider 9 Yin itself to be a Counter-All martial arts, but when you put a Counter-All against another Counter-All, the result is as good as anyone's guess.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    To Felix:

    Something to keep in mind is that Huang Shang was a government official, not a martial artist. Although he was proficient in the field of martial arts, he did not interact with martial artists. Therefore, chances are low that he would have seen something like Yijin Jing.

    I have a feeling that Huang Shang's opponents' martial arts were not in the advanced theory category. By advanced I mean other Counter-All martial arts like Dugu 9 Swords, Tianshan Plum Folding Hand, Taiji, and Shifting North Star. I doubt his opponents were good enough to learn them. I imagine them to have used conventional attacks like "this fist" and "that kick".

    Therefore, I don't imagine 9 Yin as an art designed to counter advanced martial arts like Qiankun Danuoyi. By the way, I consider 9 Yin itself to be a Counter-All martial arts, but when you put a Counter-All against another Counter-All, the result is as good as anyone's guess.
    Thanks for the good input PJ. It seems then that Huang Shang is only focused on revenge. He only wanted to make sure his stuff was able to overcome any martial arts that he saw (and perhaps one that beat him). He really never intended that his martial arts be the best there is, the best there was, the best there ever will be. (sorry, I guess that sounds a little wrestling reference.)

  13. #13
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Looking at the poll results, most people seem to share the sentiment that Huang Shang is a notch above the Greats.

    And yet, even amid my heavy advertisements, people failed to vote for him in the Strongest Warriors Survivor Game
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  14. #14
    Senior Member sarakoth's Avatar
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    A fraction of the 9Y enabled GJ to reach about 90% of pre-crazy OYF level in about two years.

    Just from that, I highly doubt HS is only a 'notch' above post-16 Greats.

  15. #15
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Looking at the poll results, most people seem to share the sentiment that Huang Shang is a notch above the Greats.

    And yet, even amid my heavy advertisements, people failed to vote for him in the Strongest Warriors Survivor Game
    Don't forget: Survivor games tend to be popularity contests rather than reflections of true ability. How many times in our Survivor games has the strongest individual actually turned out to be the final survivor?

  16. #16
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarakoth View Post
    A fraction of the 9Y enabled GJ to reach about 90% of pre-crazy OYF level in about two years.

    Just from that, I highly doubt HS is only a 'notch' above post-16 Greats.
    Huh? Fraction? GJ had the full 9Y, internal and external.
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  17. #17
    Senior Member sarakoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Huh? Fraction? GJ had the full 9Y, internal and external.
    I meant toward the end of LOCH when they were at the shack.
    I don't think GJ obtained the full 9Y at that point.

  18. #18
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Gwok Jing had possession of the full 9 Yum Jen Ging for the final forty or so years of his life, but unlike Wong Seung, he didn't dedicate those last forty years of his life to training in the 9 Yum Jen Ging like Wong Seung did. Moreover, Wong Seung was the man who *invented* the 9 Yum Jen Ging. Logic dictates that Wong Seung must have understood its theories more deeply and thoroughly than anyone else did, including Gwok Jing.

    I mean: who would know the 9 Yum Jen Ging better than the man who invented it?

  19. #19
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Not necessarily, Ken. The creator of QKDNY never practiced the 7th level; he only theorized it. Likewise, JLFW reached a higher level of the Dragon Elephant Prana Art than the creator did.
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  20. #20
    Senior Member kwekmh's Avatar
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    Practising a skill and inventing a skill would be quite different though, I presume. I assume inventing a new skill would be way more difficult than practising it; the theories are already there when you practise it, but when you invent it, you think of the theories.

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