Hong Qigong's Dog-Beating Stick vs Yang Guo's Heavy Iron Sword

[PJ]

The Dog Beating Stick utilizes sophisticated technique to win, whereas the Heavy Iron Sword relies on the superior weapon to deliver simplicity to win. If Pre-16 years Hong Qigong (when he met teenage Yang Guo) used the Dog Beating Stick against Pre-16 years Yang Guo employing Heavy Iron Sword (at the time of defeating Qiu Qianren), who do you think would win?

[Dennis Chen]

Yang Guo still hadn't developed the skills to adapt to each situation on the fly like the Greats had. It isn't until Yang Guo develops Sad Palms that he has a martial art that can change and adapt to whatever is thrown at him.

[sarakoth]

The HIS isn't quite well suited to fight something versatile like the DBS.

[Ken Cheng]

I can't decide. I think it'd be close to a dead heat. Each has distinct advantages that could potentially neutralize the other's.

[ChronoReverse]

Provided H7G knew about the power of the HIS, DBS would win.

The DBS was a rather fragile stick. The entire purpose of its mastery was that even the heaviest force is never directly countered. So unless H7G was careless, he ought to be able to control the battle. The heavy forces used to drive the HIS would actually be its own downfall.

Again, it's only possible assuming H7G has similar internal energy to YG. The YG at the end of ROCH may well have far surpassed H7G and could possibly be able to use force despite the disadvantage.

[Dimeron]

YG would win.

Because
1. YG knows the DBS himself, H7Q and HR taught him
2. YG knows the DBS counter moves, thanks to OYF

IMO just having one of those would be guarantee a win. Now, if he didn't have those advantages, then it could really go either way.

[PJ]

YG would win.

Because
1. YG knows the DBS himself, H7Q and HR taught him
2. YG knows the DBS counter moves, thanks to OYF

IMO just having one of those would be guarantee a win. Now, if he didn't have those advantages, then it could really go either way.

Yeah, We're assuming that the Yang Guo in this discussion didn't know the counters to Dog-Beating Stick.

[ProtoM]

"Simplicity brings superiority" that's what DGQB wrote. The Dog Beating Stick is very complex and it has so many changes, but if you just do a simple swing power by massive internal energy then it should breaks through. Assuming YG's internal energy is slightly greater than H7G, i think YG will win.

[ChronoReverse]

DBS's complexity isn't about dazzling or fooling though. Rather it's based on the principle of a small force moving a mountain. Using a power stroke is merely to the advantage of DBS (properly wielded).

For example, Dabaer (sp?) used an extremely heavy forceful attack yet YG (who at this time was far inferior in strength) was able to freely divert and control the heavy staff using a light and flexible Dog Beating Stick.

[Ken Cheng]

DBS's complexity isn't about dazzling or fooling though. Rather it's based on the principle of a small force moving a mountain. Using a power stroke is merely to the advantage of DBS (properly wielded).

It's basically the same underlying philosophy as Tai Chi, then?

[ChronoReverse]

With the way Jin Yong describes it, yeah. It has the same controlling and stifling abilities with the advantage of a ranged accupoint striking using a weapon. There's also the "stickiness" and circling effects.

It's described that those under attack from DBS feel like they're wallowing in mud and keep getting tripped up regardless of what they're attempting.



If I had to devise a way to deal with it I'd think about using a soft-type attack. Even then a bare-handed attack is too much of a disadvantage. Perhaps something like Tai Chi Sword (Z3F level).



Something else to consider is that just the stances and changes of DBS was enough to shock OYF and even with his intelligence it took him a long time to deal with just that stance... but the DBS stances alone were considered to be useless (by both H7G and HR) without the formula and vice versa. How much greater the whole would have to be in comparison to just the portion.

[sixdays]

DBS is all about the control and manipulation of your opponent, and getting your opponent to react to YOUR movements. it's true that DBS has some re-directing moves like tai chi, but these are for the most part defensive; the offensive moves all involve cutting your opponent off, or controlling their movements like Jeet Kune Do. Like others have said, reaction time is very important when countering DBS; a good example is when HR is able to keep GJ from pursuing his daughter (the arm cutting scene) by trapping GJ with DBS. i think we all agree that GJ is roughly twice as powerful as his wife, if not more --- yet, she's able to delay him because of the ingenuity of the moves, and his inability to react to them. two things keep this from being a good parallel to YG vs H7G though; first, GJ would never strike out offensively against his wife, so we don't get to see how DBS reacts to head on force. secondly, GJ is not a weapons user but fights with bare hands. compared to YG's sword, his movements and tactics are completely different (and if i know GJ, most likely a little slower than YG would be).

the problem with manipulating your opponent, though, lies in the ability to control them. the main question is, with the overwhelming strength of the iron sword, can H7G even control or divert it?

YG has proven over and over his evasive ability. he's got great lightness skill thanks to XLN, and having 9yin movements like gliding across the ground, as well as a passing knowledge of DBS and its counters will help him understand H7G's movements. remember, it's not necessary for YG to be an expert in DBS; only to understand the movements enough to avoid their traps.

my vote went to YG on this one.

[shenlong]

im a little confused? pre-16 year old H7G? u mean pre-when yang guo was 16? or what im not sure what your asking here. (the age has huge affect becuase before the ocean training yang guo could weild the heavy sword but his internal energy is no match for H7G's)

[PJ]

im a little confused? pre-16 year old H7G? u mean pre-when yang guo was 16? or what im not sure what your asking here. (the age has huge affect becuase before the ocean training yang guo could weild the heavy sword but his internal energy is no match for H7G's)

Pre-16 years refer to the time before the 16 years of separation between Yang Guo and Xiaolongnu. Pre-16 years Yang Guo would have been when he defeated Qiu Qianren. Pre-16 years Hong Qigong would be at the time of his death (by that I don't mean at the exact minute when he died, just near that time frame).

[Western Eccentric]

I think Guo'er would lost (by split descision) since prior Lao Wantong 16 years later he never fight a "truly greats"..