How much stronger was Yang Guo than the 4 Greats at End ROCH?

[WuxiaMaster]

We know Yang Guo is stronger than the 4 Greats, but by how much?

Here are some battles/exchanges/well established opinions which we can take into account:

1. 4 Greats are equal. Zhou Botong is slightly stronger than 4 Greats.

2. Huang Yao Shi comment: Only Guo Jing XL18Z could match his palm powers.

3. GWM fought Yideng, and would have most definitely won if the battle dragged on.

4. Yang Guo sparring with Zhou Bo Tong: Do we interpret this battle as them being equal or Yang Guo being stronger? Was Yang Guo not giving his all?

Given the above, the final battle makes it seem like YG is a whole level ahead of the 4 Greats.

Final Battle 1st Part: Happy YG (who is unable to utilize full power of Sad Palms) manage to evenly match, and is even winning, against GWM? We can even argue that the YG here even weaker than normal YG in his fight against ZBT.

Final Battle 2nd Part: Sad YG was able to destroy GWM in relatively few moves.

That means:

Sad YG >>> YG > ZBT >> GWM >> 4 Greats

[CancerLuna]

We know Yang Guo is stronger than the 4 Greats, but by how much?

Here are some battles/exchanges/well established opinions which we can take into account:

1. 4 Greats are equal. Zhou Botong is slightly stronger than 4 Greats.

2. Huang Yao Shi comment: Only Guo Jing XL18Z could match his palm powers.

3. GWM fought Yideng, and would have most definitely won if the battle dragged on.

4. Yang Guo sparring with Zhou Bo Tong: Do we interpret this battle as them being equal or Yang Guo being stronger? Was Yang Guo not giving his all?

Given the above, the final battle makes it seem like YG is a whole level ahead of the 4 Greats.

Final Battle 1st Part: Happy YG (who is unable to utilize full power of Sad Palms) manage to evenly match, and is even winning, against GWM? We can even argue that the YG here even weaker than normal YG in his fight against ZBT.

Final Battle 2nd Part: Sad YG was able to destroy GWM in relatively few moves.

That means:

Sad YG >>> YG > ZBT >> GWM >> 4 Greats

The polling choices makes it hard to vote since the only logical choice is #2.

YG and ZBT were definitely in the same tier (Great tier) and differences between experts are extremely close. I think the only possible takeaway from YG and ZBT's spar (as well as his with HYS) is that YG has reached the 'Great' level and has reached parity with them.

To see actual differences in ability, it'd require a life and death match. Within the small list of people that are at the Great level, differences between levels can probably be acknowledged through how long the fights take (qualifier is that some styles naturally take longer to subdue the opponent) or how definitive the win is.

We see some facts though. (Wording might be off, please fact check )

1. Pre 16, GJ vs GWM, was said to have to takes 1000+ stances to determine a winner (aka extremely close, probably ~)
2. Pre 16, YG vs GWM, I'd estimate YG to beat GWM in around the same time period as QQR.
3. Pre 16, YD vs QQR, Estimated to take 1000+ stances for YD to eek out half stance advantage. (YD > QQR but extremely close)
4. Pre 16, YG vs QQR, Beat him in a few hundred stances decisively (yes he threw snow in his eye)
5. Post 16, YD vs GWM, YD was obviously going to lose
6. Post 16, ZBT vs GWM, Don't remember this too heavily but I believe they were about equal
6. Post 16, YG vs GWM, In his --->happy<--- state, GWM was afraid he was going to lose in ---->200<----- stances.
7. Post 16, YG vs GWM, In his --->sad<---- state, won in less than 10 stances.

I'd say Peak YG with only Sad Palms is about 10-200 stances better than GWM with a definitive win.

If you look at the other examples, most will be about 1000+ to determine who has the advantage/beginning to win.

I'll conclude that in a regular spar, YG == GJ == ZBT == Greats == GWM everytime. There just isn't enough bloodlust to determine who's better.

In a regular fight where YG is serious, I'd give it to YG to win against ZBT/GWM in less than 500 stances everytime.

So given your last statement,

Sad YG >>> YG > ZBT >> GWM >> 4 Greats

I'd change it to
Sad YG >>> YG > GWM == ZBT > 4 Greats
and then qualify it with the fact that even though Sad YG is >>> YG, >>> on the left indicate extremely small differences in ability. (But as we already know, even small improvements are extremely hard to attain once you're at a high level.)


Re: Sad Palms
I almost wonder if Sad Palms is potentially slightly stronger than just 'Great' Level arts (YYZ, 18DP, Taichi Sword, etc). YG did have access to Dugu's teachings, why not incorporate those elements/intuitions into his own creation?

[_Kenny_]

I would say a 5-10 level difference that YG at his peak has over the 4 greats at the end of ROCH. We've seen him beat GWM in his sad state (peak YG) in a few stances.

This is the guideline that Wuxiamaster has for the JY character leveling at 5 level and 10 level difference:

5 LV Difference - The difference is wide enough now that A would most definitely win, provided A fight seriously and not let down his guard. B can still give a very good challenge.

Example: LOCH Great vs LOCH Guo Jing


10 LV Difference - At this point, A should be able to defeat B with relatively ease (likely within 100 exchange). There is almost no chance of B winning. However, A still need to exhaust considerable attention/energy/stamina to deal with B.

Example: White Eagle Guardian against the righteous leaders one after another, Li Mo Chou vs Early Yang Guo


YG is probably past level 80 in the final rankings at his peak and not level 78 since he beat GWM relatively easy at the last battle in his sad state.

[hyoyatika]

I firmly believe that YG is no better than the other 4 Greats.

2. Huang Yao Shi comment: Only Guo Jing XL18Z could match his palm powers.

That was in terms of palms. HYS essentially said that Sad Palms and XL18Z were the best palm skills in the world. That's all.

I would actually not interpret the fight that YG and HYS had as advantageous to YG because we saw HYS matching YG's best skill (Sad Palm) using his secondary skill (Luoying Shen Jian Zhang) for a long long while. And when HYS could no longer match it, he dispelled Sad Palms with a simple flick of his fingers (Divine Flick). I won't consider YG winning the match, in fact, I would say that HYS actually look better in that duel.

3. GWM fought Yideng, and would have most definitely won if the battle dragged on.

GWM took one day one night to defeat QQR. This match may go to YD.

4. Yang Guo sparring with Zhou Bo Tong: Do we interpret this battle as them being equal or Yang Guo being stronger? Was Yang Guo not giving his all?

Why would you think YG was not giving his all? He was giving his all-he had a mission, he wanted to convince ZBT to see Yinggu. If you were to ask me, ZBT was the one not giving his all, since he was using some skill from 9yin, instead of his signature Kong Ming Quan. Even then, YG was unable to get the better of ZBT, and had to resort to not showing his final 2 moves to tempt ZBT. If YG was able to defeat ZBT using Sad Palms, he would for sure, since it would mean a very curious ZBT who wants to learn Sad Palms and is likely to agree to any proposals (see Yinggu).

Final Battle 1st Part: Happy YG (who is unable to utilize full power of Sad Palms) manage to evenly match, and is even winning, against GWM? We can even argue that the YG here even weaker than normal YG in his fight against ZBT.

Final Battle 2nd Part: Sad YG was able to destroy GWM in relatively few moves.

YG was losing to GWM, until the tower collasped and GWM went to save Guo Xiang.

All in all, I'm against the opinion that YG was better than the other Greats.

ZBT: Fight to lure him to Yinggu showed that ZBT is obviously better.

GJ: GWM was pissed scare to take him on, while he was more than happy to face YG. There is little reason to believe that YG had more inner power than GJ as well, since GJ has been trained in 9yin for much longer. Also, he might have benefited from the Quanzhen effect, depending on whether you subscribe to it.

HYS: As mentioned, he dispeled YG's Sad Palms with a casual flick of Divine Flick. I would also consider his subsequent feat of killing Huo Du to be amazing and a true showmanship of his greatness, pun intended. Think about it-he was able to emerge from his concealed hiding place, launch his Divine Flick from a great distance and with great accuracy to kill Huo Du and all these happened faster than anyone who was within close proximity of Huo Du could react. I think this amazing feat itself is true testament to his ability. I do not think he will pale in comparison to YG.

YD: A little more tricky, but it was stated he reached the pinnacle of Yiyang Finger. He might have consistently duel-ed with QQR as well to improve, so who knows how good was he?

YD, ZBT and HYS should not be knocked down for not being able to defeat GWM. YD was trying to seal GWM's acupoints, had no intent of killing him. HYS was too proud to take advantage of a 3v1 situation. ZBT was actually able to put GWM on the backpedal. GWM could not attack and had to defend for his life.

[Western Eccentric]

Emmmmph I would ranks them..
Lv 82 Yang Guo (when he "destroy" Jinlun)
Lv 80 Yang Guo (normal mode at end ROCH - when he fought Lao Wantong)
Guo Jing (debatable)
Lv 78 Yang Guo (happy mode - at early fight with Jinlun)
Lao Wantong
Jinlun Guoshi
Lv 76 Huang Yaoshi
Yideng
Hong Qigong
Ouyang Feng
Yang Guo (right after create Sad Palm - before roaming Jianghu)