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Thread: Would it really be that bad if certain wuxia villains achieved supreme power?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Would it really be that bad if certain wuxia villains achieved supreme power?

    Many wuxia villains are motivated by power...specifically, power within wulin. Hence, they covet supreme martial arts skills so that no one could challenge them. That's why West Poison Au Yeung Fung risked everything to gain the 9 Yum Jen Ging, and why Dung Fong But Bai and Ngok But Kwun gave up manhood itself in an attempt to master the Qwai Fa Bo Deen. It's almost Wuxia Villain Cliche # 1.

    Hence, in each wuxia story with this plot development, the good/heroic characters struggle valiantly to thwart these villains from achieving martial arts supremacy. The heroes typically are concerned about the villains' threat to *wulin*.

    Think about that for a moment: wulin represented a very small portion of the overall population, and since people in wulin *chose* to adopt a career and lifestyle that they knew to be inherently violent and dangerous, isn't getting killed by a powerful martial artist just part of the deal? A natural occupational hazard that comes with the career?

    It's not as if the likes of Au Yeung Fung, Kau Cheen Yan, Dung Fong But Bai, or Ngok But Kwun would become major menaces to the general population if they achieved martial arts supremacy. If any of these individuals became the most powerful martial artist in the world, their enemies might suffer...and *maybe* wulin in general might suffer (although that remains to be proven; the above individuals might not be heroes, but given supreme power, who says they wouldn't use it for positive ends?), but it's not as if Au Yeung Fung or Dung Fong But Bai would suddenly go out and eat babies and torture senior citizens after having mastered the 9 Yum Jen Ging or the Qwai Fa Bo Deen. These wulin villains posed very little threat to the general population no matter how powerful they became; the only people who really had to worry about them were their wulin enemies.

    Now there's an exception for certain villains: Mo Yung Bok would have used his martial arts as a stepping stone for rebuilding his Yin Empire in a bid for world conquest, but that's because he had political ambitions that stretched way beyond wulin. Lee Mok Sau would have posed a threat because she was just plain cruel. Mui Chiu Fung would have been dangerous because she needed random targets for practicing her martial arts. For the most part, however, wulin menaces contained their troublemaking to wulin, and the scope of their menace was really limited.

    That's why the heroic quest to "save wulin" doesn't impress me much; wulin, for the most part, can take care of itself. It's those who *can't* fight for themselves that I think should concern the heroes more.

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    That's very true. Those people can already terrorize the general populace if they chose to do so, and becoming the most powerful wouldn't affect their decision to do so or not. It seems like once they accomplish their goal of being the undisputed number 1 fighter, they wouldn't have much else to do. And still, being the most powerful martial artist doesn't mean you can take on #2 and #3 together, so I'm guessing they're really doing it for pride. If it's a villain that happens to have the talent to become the most powerful, kudos to him.

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    That's a pretty good averall assesment. Yang Kang with Yue Fei's manual would be a much bigger threath overall that Ouyang Feng with 9 Yin. And the population at large does recognize this, as Guo Jing is in the end the most renowned hero of the era. Not because he was the top fighter, but because of his defense of the country. He was the people's hero.

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    Wulin Mong Zu is only the first step. The Emperor is step #2.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Ken, you're totally underestimating an entire society of elite fighters and thinkers. A united wulin under evil dictator Candious Maximus will conquer the Central Plain, for sure. Wulin members have massive influence outside of wulin too. They're like the mafia running big businesses, controlling lands, blackmailing imperial officers and other influential folks. They are a huge threat.

    Look at the Ming Cult in HSDS. They are only a tiny part of wulin, and they led the major rebellion against the Yuen Empire which eventually led to their collapse. A couple hundreds of wulin folks on Shaolin in HSDS could hold their own against more than 5000 of the best Mongolian troops, and only struggled when another 5000 were arriving. The Great-level fighters could sneak into any well-guarded palace and chop the head of any big-nosed emperor or general that they don't like.

    Posing little threat to the country and the general population? I beg to differ!
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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by em500 View Post
    That's a pretty good averall assesment. Yang Kang with Yue Fei's manual would be a much bigger threath overall that Ouyang Feng with 9 Yin. And the population at large does recognize this, as Guo Jing is in the end the most renowned hero of the era. Not because he was the top fighter, but because of his defense of the country. He was the people's hero.
    Yang Kang with the Yue Fei manual will just be a little boy with a book. That kid is retarded. It's not like he can read it and his soldiers will just follow him into battles, no question asked, and the enemies will just drop dead. Guo Jing made great use of the Yue Fei manual because he already had the utmost respect of his soldiers before he even read the bloody thing.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    XAJH was an excellent example of this sort of ambition. Zuo Lengchan had a multi-step plan that went as followed:

    1) Unify the 5 sword sects to become the Five Sword Sect.

    2) Merge and consolidate the Five Sword Sect with the 'lesser' sects like Kunlun, Emei, etc., to form a single large sect that could stand as equals with Shaolin and Wudang.

    3) Take over/assimilate both Shaolin and Wudang, so that his power would greater than even that of the Sun Moon Sect.

    4) Now as overlord of the entire Wulin, wage war against the dynasty and become Emperor.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 08-15-08 at 04:34 AM.
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    Most of the villains with few exceptions have a bunch of followers, busy bodies. Though their skills are moderate, they are professionalized in plundering, bulling, and doing other evil things. Orthodox wulin sects famed mostly by their aggressive policy toward those medium and low level villains. If the big villain dominates the wulin, he/she will give a way the low level villains against orthodox sects which would result a wide ranged public unrest.
    Last edited by odbayarb2000; 01-14-08 at 10:28 PM.
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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    In JY, there are numerous examples of wulin people meddling in commoner's affairs.

    For example, in Young Flying Fox, Feng Tian Nan lived like a king in his province Guang Dong, if it wasn't for Hu Fei, he'd still be there bullying commoners. Orthodox members and Xia Ke keep these evil wulin members in check, so they don't damage society too much, e.g. Tian Bu Guang is hunted by 5 sects for raping women.
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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    Wulin Mong Zu is only the first step. The Emperor is step #2.
    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    Ken, you're totally underestimating an entire society of elite fighters and thinkers. A united wulin under evil dictator Candious Maximus will conquer the Central Plain, for sure. Wulin members have massive influence outside of wulin too. They're like the mafia running big businesses, controlling lands, blackmailing imperial officers and other influential folks. They are a huge threat.
    Except that guys like Au Yeung Fung and Ngok But Kwun never expressed any such interests and ambitions. The entire scope if their goal seemed to be contained exclusively within a wulin context. Au Yeung Fung was disinterested in the affairs of the Sung, the Jin, and the Mongols: if he gained the 9 Yum Jen Ging and defeated his rivals at the Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, his goal would be accomplished and his life complete. Ditto with Ngok But Kwun. Neither Au Yeung Fung nor Ngok But Kwun expressed any wish to become emperor (and if that had been their goal, there were certainly easier paths than the ones they chose).

    Mo Yung Bok and Sing Kwun had ambitions that reached beyond mere martial arts supremacy and domination of wulin, but those guys seemed exceptional. Most wulin villains seem to focus on what they can do within wulin only.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Yue Buqun's ambition wasn't much different from that of Zuo Lengchan's. He just hid it very well.

    Ouyang Feng just wanted to be the #1 martial artist under heaven.

    Of course TVB adaptations wouldn't explain all of that.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    Ouyang Feng just wanted to be the #1 martial artist under heaven.
    Which wouldn't affect the general population very much at all, would it? I'm not even sure it would hurt wulin in general...just the other Greats and their immediate associates.

    It's not that villains such as Au Yeung Fung weren't malevolent; it's just that their own wulin-focused myopia limited the threat they posed to the world at large.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    Yue Buqun's ambition wasn't much different from that of Zuo Lengchan's. He just hid it very well.
    Ditto that--for those who are curious, I think it's somewhere in the translation of the scene where Fangzheng and Chongxu brief LHC on what is really going on. Forget where exactly though--when I have a chance, I'll look it up...

    Of course TVB adaptations wouldn't explain all of that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    Wulin Mong Zu is only the first step. The Emperor is step #2.
    In most case, villains only wanted to become Wulin Mong Zu because being WMZ is even better than emperor. WMZ basically can do whatever he/she wanted without any objection. Anyone against them is going to die. On the other hand, emperor has law to follow. Sometimes emperor has to sacrifices their interest/needs for the sake of the country whereas WMZ has little to care about others.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    In most case, villains only wanted to become Wulin Mong Zu because being WMZ is even better than emperor. WMZ basically can do whatever he/she wanted without any objection.
    Actually, becoming Wulin Director tends to attract more problems. It's like becoming a championship athletic team or the #1 ranked athlete: EVERYBODY will come gunning after you.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Actually, becoming Wulin Director tends to attract more problems. It's like becoming a championship athletic team or the #1 ranked athlete: EVERYBODY will come gunning after you.
    Not really, DFBB was acknowledged to be invincible but until that crazy old Ren got dug out, Shaolin and Wudang and everybody else did not go out of their way to gun for him.

    I suppose on a lesser scale, MRF and QF were widely acknowledged as the #1s but there was no reference of anyone gunning for them solely because of their fame. (nobody bothered Murong and QF was targetted only because he wouldn't bone Mrs Ma).

    Come to think of it, the 'Everyone is out to get you' theory seems to work more in Gu Long novels.
    Last edited by CC; 08-15-08 at 04:12 AM.

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    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Actually, becoming Wulin Director tends to attract more problems. It's like becoming a championship athletic team or the #1 ranked athlete: EVERYBODY will come gunning after you.
    Quite the opposite. Very few people would gun for you because they're scared of your reputation. On the other hand, you can build up a network of vassals pretty quickly, because they're willing to listen to you if you are the Mengzhu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Come to think of it, the 'Everyone is out to get you' theory seems to work more in Gu Long novels.
    Very applicable to Gu Long. Third Master Xie Xiaofeng specifically retired because he was sick of people gunning for him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss View Post
    Very applicable to Gu Long. Third Master Xie Xiaofeng specifically retired because he was sick of people gunning for him.
    Yeah, Gu Long goons seem to have more disregard for life.

    Look thats Ximen Chuixue! Let me try my Returning Wind Sword on him!

    Look thats Yan 13, let me try my Heart Piercing Sword on him!

    Haha! I got the Curved Sabre, Ding Pang is gonna get it from me!

    Bah! What flying dagger. It can't be that fas... gurgle....

    Bloody Cripple Fu with his black sabre, lemme show him how fast my sword is.

    Repeat about 600 times per novel.

    In JY, one chapter type goons tend to stay away from the big names.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Yeah, Gu Long goons seem to have more disregard for life.

    Look thats Ximen Chuixue! Let me try my Returning Wind Sword on him!

    Look thats Yan 13, let me try my Heart Piercing Sword on him!

    Haha! I got the Curved Sabre, Ding Pang is gonna get it from me!

    Bah! What flying dagger. It can't be that fas... gurgle....

    Bloody Cripple Fu with his black sabre, lemme show him how fast my sword is.

    Repeat about 600 times per novel.

    In JY, one chapter type goons tend to stay away from the big names.
    It probably ties in with the respective authors' personalities. Hence why Jin Yong is like 90 and still kickin' and Gu Long's in Avalon drinking it up with Li Xunhuan, Shen Lang, Lu Xiaofeng, and Chu Liuxiang.
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    傅紅雪冷道,“現在你臉上豈非已經戴上了個面具?”

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