Gwok Jing/Chow Bak Tung vs. Little Dragon Girl

[kwekmh]

What's so unclear about it? 9 Yum Jen Ging is superior to both the Cheun Jen Sect and Ancient Tomb Sect techniques, and any advantage gained by their fusion is neutralized by the Left/Right Hand Technique.

I am not commenting on the 9 Yin point as I know it is true.

However, I must ask why you think any advantage gained by the fusion is neutralised by the Left/Right Hand Technique. The power of the fusion is not within the Left/Right Hand Technique, but instead, because of the swordplay itself.

[Ken Cheng]

I am not commenting on the 9 Yin point as I know it is true.

However, I must ask why you think any advantage gained by the fusion is neutralised by the Left/Right Hand Technique. The power of the fusion is not within the Left/Right Hand Technique, but instead, because of the swordplay itself.

Originally, Double Sword Attack was meant to be used by two people - hypothetically, Wong Chung Yeung and Lam Chiu Ying, and ultimately, Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl. When Lam Chiu Ying created this technique, she probably never imagined that it could be used by a single person.

Little Dragon Girl was only able to do it through the mechanism of the Left/Right Hand Technique. To disrupt it, Gwok Jing or Chow Bak Tung would only need to use the aspect of 9 Yum Jen Ging that neutralizes Cheun Jen Sect martial arts on one side, and use the aspect of the 9 Yum Jen Ging that neutralizes the Ancient Tomb Sect martial arts on the other. This would likely also be the case if Gwok Jing or Chow Bak Tung were to fight Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl together (with the couple using Double Sword Attack); 9 Yum Jen Ging + Left/Right Hand Technique is the ideal formula for dealing with Double Sword Attack.

[pannonian]

I think (though not sure) that it was stated in ROCH that 9Y can defeat that combination.

The implication was that there were certain qualities in the Ancient Tomb arts that Wang Chongyang couldn't see a way of defeating with his own skills, but eventually found a counter using a combination of 9 yin skills. Judging by the elements of 9 yin he noted down, presumably it was the hypnotic effect that he countered thus. However, there is no sign that he managed to counter the combined swordplay, for to do so one would first have to realise that the Ancient Tomb swordplay was meant to be symbiotic with Quanzhen, and there is no indication that WCY ever realised this, or thought that Lin Chaoying's arts were anything other than in competition to his own.

Of course, that's only when comparing techniques. But as the Dragon Palms and the Heavy Iron Sword show, power and speed can overcome techniques.

[tape]

The power of the double swordplay was that they covered each other's flaws and created a flawless swordplay. Just knowing L/R technique and using the neutralization methods in each hand doesn't mean you can neutralize the combined swordplay. L/R boosts XLL by a lot more than it boosts any other character, just because you both know L/R doesn't make it equal.

[ChronoReverse]

L/R isn't a counter to the final stage of Jade Maiden (the combined QZ and AT), but 9 Yin is definitely the full counter.

All the previous stages of Jade Maiden may have been brilliant, but they weren't insurmountable. There was no way WCY, even after thinking long and hard, could find NO way to counter it. Only the final combined stage was described to have no openings. Therefore this must have been the stage that WCY simply couldn't counter.

But WCY did find a counter in the end inspired by 9 Yin. From this we can deduce that 9 Yin must be a counter to the full Jade Maiden.

[pannonian]

L/R isn't a counter to the final stage of Jade Maiden (the combined QZ and AT), but 9 Yin is definitely the full counter.

All the previous stages of Jade Maiden may have been brilliant, but they weren't insurmountable. There was no way WCY, even after thinking long and hard, could find NO way to counter it. Only the final combined stage was described to have no openings. Therefore this must have been the stage that WCY simply couldn't counter.

But WCY did find a counter in the end inspired by 9 Yin. From this we can deduce that 9 Yin must be a counter to the full Jade Maiden.

Is there any sign that WCY understood what the final stage of Jade Maiden was? AFAICS, WCY saw LCY, even at the end of his life, as a friendly competitor, and even in the 3rd edition he admitted his inferiority in having to use outside arts to counter LCY's self-created arts. Yet this wasn't what the final stage of Jade Maiden was about. Rather than merely the counter to Quanzhen, which was how YG and XLN used it up until the Heroes' meet and slightly after, it was meant to be the swordplay of two lovers, and AFAICS there is no indication that WCY ever realised this.

WCY could probably have countered the Ancient Tomb with his own theories, but IMHO there is no evidence that he could counter its techniques, for there is no evidence that he properly understood them in the first place.

[tape]

I feel that 9 Yin is definitely a level above Ancient Tomb and Quan Zhen martial art theory, and it can counter each of them seperately, but I'm not sure there's evidence that it can counter the two swordplays put together.

[ChronoReverse]

The whole point was the LCY put the entire thing there just to show up WCY. It makes no sense then for any part to be hidden. It also makes no sense that WCY wouldn't understand it. If he couldn't understand it, who can? Second, even though the earlier parts were the black star of QZ style, it wouldn't make sense that a genius like WCY would be unabled to find ANY counter. Especially when YG and XLN weren't exactly invincible without using the final stage. So it is only the final stage where it was flawless and had no opening. It was also the stage where the moves were hypnotic and hard to see (one specific case where 9 Yin would counter it).

Where there is no flaw, one must create one. This is the hallmark of the ultimate martial arts, the likes of QKDNY, 9 Yin, etc.

[tape]

Yes, when there is no flaw one must be created. However there's no evidence that 9 Yin has the ability to do so with the double swordplay. They were the first two to use it that way, and never fought any experts of 9 Yin. To me it just seems to be a ridiculously fast sword formation with no flaws, and there's not much theory that can overcome something like that. Either be faster or overwhelm it with much superior power. 9 Yin doesn't guarantee it can do either of the two.

[duguxiaojing]

The whole point was the LCY put the entire thing there just to show up WCY. It makes no sense then for any part to be hidden. It also makes no sense that WCY wouldn't understand it. If he couldn't understand it, who can? Second, even though the earlier parts were the black star of QZ style, it wouldn't make sense that a genius like WCY would be unabled to find ANY counter. Especially when YG and XLN weren't exactly invincible without using the final stage. So it is only the final stage where it was flawless and had no opening. It was also the stage where the moves were hypnotic and hard to see (one specific case where 9 Yin would counter it).

The intention of the final stage was never explicitly stated or shown in the drawings in the AT. As far was we know, WCY only saw the skill as a counter to QZ swordplay and not a compliment. YG and XLN had the full manual as well as the 9 yin manual's counter, yet they were unable to use or even understand the final stage. It was a total fluke that had XLN and YG discovered PHOTJM. IMO for WCY to actually understand the final level he had to understand LCY's feelings towards him(she designed the sword technqiue while imagining her and WCY going up against a powerful enemy), which i doubt he did judging by how he had to have the last laugh and inscribed those words into the stone coffins.

That said, 9yin and other uber manunals were suppospedly all ecompassing in terms of high level martial arts theory....so wouldnt be 2 surprised if something in their could counter the final stage.

[ChronoReverse]

You guys are STILL not looking at what I'm saying. I'm saying that we must deduce that it's the final stage that WCY admired and could find NO WAY to counter. Not just "no QZ martial art can counter", but WCY can find no way to counter (besides simply using superior internal energy).

Think about it, if WCY could find no way to counter much of Jade Maiden who else could? The stronger Mongolian Warriors could certainly defeat YG one on one even if he were using Jade Maiden. And even if XLN and YG were more proficient with the pre-final stages of Jade Maiden, do you think they could beat any of the Greats?

Thus we must deduce that it was the final stage, which was flawless and gave GWM trouble, that WCY understood was uncounterable.

[Dennis Chen]

Originally, Double Sword Attack was meant to be used by two people - hypothetically, Wong Chung Yeung and Lam Chiu Ying, and ultimately, Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl. When Lam Chiu Ying created this technique, she probably never imagined that it could be used by a single person.

Little Dragon Girl was only able to do it through the mechanism of the Left/Right Hand Technique. To disrupt it, Gwok Jing or Chow Bak Tung would only need to use the aspect of 9 Yum Jen Ging that neutralizes Cheun Jen Sect martial arts on one side, and use the aspect of the 9 Yum Jen Ging that neutralizes the Ancient Tomb Sect martial arts on the other. This would likely also be the case if Gwok Jing or Chow Bak Tung were to fight Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl together (with the couple using Double Sword Attack); 9 Yum Jen Ging + Left/Right Hand Technique is the ideal formula for dealing with Double Sword Attack.

Where does it say that 9 Ying Zhen Jin can neutralize Quan Zhen martial arts? Wang Chongyang was likely able to. WCY was singular (along with LCY) in his martial arts skill and knowledge (he also deduced that his Xian Tian Gong + Yi Yang Zhi could be a blackstar to Ha Ma Gong). Zhou Botong might be enough of a genius to determine how to beat Quan Zhen martial arts, but Jade Maiden swordplay is another question. Also, Jade Maiden is supposed to be able to cover all the weaknesses of Quan Zhen martial arts. Therefore, it might take someone who was smarter than WCY (who wasn't able to Jade Maiden himself) to defeat the combination. It's debatable whether Guo Jing or Zhou Botong ever reached that level of understanding of 9 Ying.

Edit: Yeah, what tape said.

[pannonian]

You guys are STILL not looking at what I'm saying. I'm saying that we must deduce that it's the final stage that WCY admired and could find NO WAY to counter. Not just "no QZ martial art can counter", but WCY can find no way to counter (besides simply using superior internal energy).

Think about it, if WCY could find no way to counter much of Jade Maiden who else could? The stronger Mongolian Warriors could certainly defeat YG one on one even if he were using Jade Maiden. And even if XLN and YG were more proficient with the pre-final stages of Jade Maiden, do you think they could beat any of the Greats?

Thus we must deduce that it was the final stage, which was flawless and gave GWM trouble, that WCY understood was uncounterable.

Hence WCY could well have beaten it with his skills and his mastery of such, just like how Dragon Palms and Heavy Sword can beat all techniques through the unvarying application of overwhelming force, but he didn't counter the specific technique as such, for in order to do so, one would first have to understand it, and there is no evidence that he did.

For an example of this kind of thing, see Huo Du's defeat of Lu Youjiao, who was using dogbeating stick, then compare with Ouyang Feng's theoretical defeat of the same. The first is a superior fighter pretty much able to ignore his opponent and instead prevailing through superior fighting skills, while the second is someone specifically devising a counter. Just because one can do the first doesn't mean one has done the second.

Edit: WCY did ine the end find a way of countering what he thought was the final, unconquerable part of Ancient Tomb Arts, and inscribed those parts of 9 yin that allowed him to do so. Athena theorised elsewhere that this was the hypnotic effect, the hiding of Jade Maiden's intention behind a myriad of illusory strokes, that was thus countered. But there is no indication that the Soul-altering spell and the other trance-breaking skills were related in any way to the combined swordplay, which was a mini-formation. Hence I'd say that the mystery of Jade Maiden that perplexed WCY for so long wasn't the combined swordplay, and WCY never understood Jade Maiden to the extent that he saw this last level.

[ChronoReverse]

Athena didn't theorize that. It was a 3rd edition change.