OK, you SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan worshippers: your idol vs. the Elites of DGSD.

[Ken Cheng]

For the past year and a half, PJ and CC have promoted the legend of SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan, that minor DGSD character who was apparently more powerful than he ever got credit for. His legend is predicated upon some extraordinary feats, such as infamously throwing some object over a mountain. Zhuo Bufan, however, remains untested against DGSD's best. So now, let's see.

One-on-one, how would SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan do against the following?

1. Kiu Fung
2. Siu Yeun San
3. Mo Yung Bok
4. Kau Mor Tze
5. Chief Abbot Yeun Chi of Shaolin
6. The best of the Celestial Dragon Temple monks
7. Deun Yin Hing
8. Deun Jing Ming
9. Mo Yung F'uk
10. any *one* of the Siu Yiu Sect Elders (Mo Ngai Tze, Teen San Tung Lo, or Lee Chou Sui)

How long would the fights last? Could Zhuo Bufan conceivably defeat any of the above in one-on-one combat?

[dewyloony123]

I was wondering where Ken was. As they say, "Speak [in my case, think] of Ts'ao Ts'ao, and Ts'ao Ts'ao appears!"

If SWORD GOD could beat anybody, it would have to be Mo Yung F'uk, right? That guy is embarassing.

[PJ]

Since you ask with sincerity, you shall receive the same.

I believe SWORD GOD's martial arts level lies somewhere between the lower level of Murong Fu and the upper level of Abbot Xuanci. I arrived at this conclusion with several supporting evidence, available on request.

Right now, I am more interested in how SWORD GOD would fare against characters from other novels, such as the Red Dot of Central Plains.

[Ken Cheng]

Right now, I am more interested in how SWORD GOD would fare against characters from other novels, such as the Red Dot of Central Plains.

That's not just another novel, but a whole other wuxia universe.

Central Plains 1 Dim Hung has never impressed me much. He was a good swordsman, but seemed to fall short of the standards set by Ah Fei, Sai Mun Chui Sheut, and of course, Tse Hiu Fung.

[flamer]

Well, Zhuo BuFan lost against the inexperienced Xuzhu, and Xuzhu fought an even match with Ding Chunqiu for a long time after spending time in LinJiu Palace. I think this would mean that Zhuo BuFan will lose against Ding Chunqiu and thus any of the great level fighters in DGSD, including guys such as Mu RongFu and You TanZhi. Thus he will have no chance against Xiao Feng, Duan Yu or any of the three elders. At best he can defeat monks at Celestial Temple, and maybe a even match with the abbot of shaolin.

[Exodus]

he is overrated all of the elites would beat him quite easily

[PJ]

Well, Zhuo BuFan lost against the inexperienced Xuzhu, and Xuzhu fought an even match with Ding Chunqiu for a long time after spending time in LinJiu Palace. I think this would mean that Zhuo BuFan will lose against Ding Chunqiu and thus any of the great level fighters in DGSD, including guys such as Mu RongFu and You TanZhi. Thus he will have no chance against Xiao Feng, Duan Yu or any of the three elders. At best he can defeat monks at Celestial Temple, and maybe a even match with the abbot of shaolin.

Good attempt to answer the question, but your analysis has a number of flaws.

You say that Zhuo Bufan would lose against Ding Chunqiu... but may defeat monks at Celestial Dragon Temple and may be a match for Shaolin Abbot Xuanci. That is impossible, because those monks are on par with Ding Chunqiu, if not better.

When Xuzhu fought Ding Chunqiu, it was said that Xuzhu could have taken Ding out in no time if he really wanted to. But due to Xuzhu's gentle nature, he delayed the lethal attacks until Ding started injuring Xuzhu's maiden. Therefore, it's not true that Ding Chunqiu would last a while against Xuzhu in a fair combat.

Zhuo Bufan did not really lose to Xuzhu. It was LOTUS FAIRY Cui Luhua who got injured by Xuzhu's auto-protect. Zhuo Bufan failed to penetrate Xuzhu with his sword, but we have to keep in mind that even the GREAT WHEEL MONK Jiumozhi failed to harm Xuzhu with his maximum force.

A better comparison would be to look at Zhuo Bufan vs Murong Fu; their comparison is more tangible. It was mentioned that Big Boss Wu (Wu Laoda) is not much worse than Murong Fu (当真动手相斗，也非片刻间便能取胜). Later, Big Boss Wu could not fathom how SWORD GOD could have executed Island Leader Qu in a flash. He actually thought that only Tianshan Tonglao could have performed such a slick Single-Stance Execution. This puts SWORD GOD at a considerably higher level as Big Boss Wu.

Plus, the Pair of Monsters from Pearl Cliff who ganged up on Big Boss Wu, judging by their ease of sneaking up on Wu, they shouldn't be too bad. And yet, SWORD GOD toyed with them so easily, it was not even funny.

For your refernece, SWORD GOD's accomplishments during his brief appearance in DGSD:

HAVING REACHED THE PEAK OF PERFECTION IN SWORDPLAY

HAVING SOLICITED NO LESS THAN THREE MASSIVE CHEERING SESSIONS FROM CROWD OF EXPERTS

HAVING SLICED THE TABLE IN 9 IDENTICAL PIECES IN A FLASH

HAVING PRODUCED A SNAKE-LIKE WHIRLING HALO EFFECT WITH HIS SWORD

HAVING THRUSTED A DELICATE BLADE ONE FOOT DEEP INTO A SOLID GRANITE

SINGLE-STANCE EXECUTION OF AN ISLAND LEADER, EVOKING THE FEARFULNESS OF TIANSHAN TONGLAO IN OTHERS

TOSSING AN OBJECT ACROSS MOUNTAIN RANGES OVER A DISTANCE OF 3 CHINESE MILES

CRYSTAL CLEAR VOICE TRANSMISSION OVER MOUNTAIN PEAKS OVER A DISTANCE OF 3+ CHINESE MILES

EXERTING TREMOR IN A PAIR OF MONSTERS OF PEARL CLIFF W/EXQUISITE SWORD EXTENSION & BLOOD-BOILING TAP

[Ken Cheng]

HAVING REACHED THE PEAK OF PERFECTION IN SWORDPLAY

HAVING SOLICITED NO LESS THAN THREE MASSIVE CHEERING SESSIONS FROM CROWD OF EXPERTS

HAVING SLICED THE TABLE IN 9 IDENTICAL PIECES IN A FLASH

HAVING PRODUCED A SNAKE-LIKE WHIRLING HALO EFFECT WITH HIS SWORD

HAVING THRUSTED A DELICATE BLADE ONE FOOT DEEP INTO A SOLID GRANITE

SINGLE-STANCE EXECUTION OF AN ISLAND LEADER, EVOKING THE FEARFULNESS OF TIANSHAN TONGLAO IN OTHERS

TOSSING AN OBJECT ACROSS MOUNTAIN RANGES OVER A DISTANCE OF 3 CHINESE MILES

CRYSTAL CLEAR VOICE TRANSMISSION OVER MOUNTAIN PEAKS OVER A DISTANCE OF 3+ CHINESE MILES

EXERTING TREMOR IN A PAIR OF MONSTERS OF PEARL CLIFF W/EXQUISITE SWORD EXTENSION & BLOOD-BOILING TAP

Yeah, but would any of these flashy feats actually enable him to defeat that list of martial artists I listed?

We all know that SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan can do all kinds of crazy martial arts parlor tricks, but can he win or at least hold his own against the best of his time? For all his flash, he's won no fights against the DGSD Elite class.

[PJ]

Yeah, but would any of these flashy feats actually enable to defeat that list of martial artists I listed?

No, & I already stated my opinion that Abbot Xuanci > Zhuo Bufan > Murong Fu.

For all his flash, he's won no fights against the DGSD Elite class.

Well, he's never had a chance to meet any of them in the novel... except Xuzhu.

[CC]

For all his flash, he's won no fights against the DGSD Elite class.

Yeah but you can say the same for TSTL, Li Qiushui, Xiao Feng, Xiao Yuanshan, Murong Bo, Duan Yu, Xu Zhu and Jiumozhi.

Sweeper monk was the only guy who won against an Elite class.

[flamer]

Good attempt to answer the question, but your analysis has a number of flaws.

You say that Zhuo Bufan would lose against Ding Chunqiu... but may defeat monks at Celestial Dragon Temple and may be a match for Shaolin Abbot Xuanci. That is impossible, because those monks are on par with Ding Chunqiu, if not better.

When Xuzhu fought Ding Chunqiu, it was said that Xuzhu could have taken Ding out in no time if he really wanted to. But due to Xuzhu's gentle nature, he delayed the lethal attacks until Ding started injuring Xuzhu's maiden. Therefore, it's not true that Ding Chunqiu would last a while against Xuzhu in a fair combat.

Zhuo Bufan did not really lose to Xuzhu. It was LOTUS FAIRY Cui Luhua who got injured by Xuzhu's auto-protect. Zhuo Bufan failed to penetrate Xuzhu with his sword, but we have to keep in mind that even the GREAT WHEEL MONK Jiumozhi failed to harm Xuzhu with his maximum force.

A better comparison would be to look at Zhuo Bufan vs Murong Fu; their comparison is more tangible. It was mentioned that Big Boss Wu (Wu Laoda) is not much worse than Murong Fu (当真动手相斗，也非片刻间便能取胜). Later, Big Boss Wu could not fathom how SWORD GOD could have executed Island Leader Qu in a flash. He actually thought that only Tianshan Tonglao could have performed such a slick Single-Stance Execution. This puts SWORD GOD at a considerably higher level as Big Boss Wu.

Plus, the Pair of Monsters from Pearl Cliff who ganged up on Big Boss Wu, judging by their ease of sneaking up on Wu, they shouldn't be too bad. And yet, SWORD GOD toyed with them so easily, it was not even funny.

For your refernece, SWORD GOD's accomplishments during his brief appearance in DGSD:

HAVING REACHED THE PEAK OF PERFECTION IN SWORDPLAY

HAVING SOLICITED NO LESS THAN THREE MASSIVE CHEERING SESSIONS FROM CROWD OF EXPERTS

HAVING SLICED THE TABLE IN 9 IDENTICAL PIECES IN A FLASH

HAVING PRODUCED A SNAKE-LIKE WHIRLING HALO EFFECT WITH HIS SWORD

HAVING THRUSTED A DELICATE BLADE ONE FOOT DEEP INTO A SOLID GRANITE

SINGLE-STANCE EXECUTION OF AN ISLAND LEADER, EVOKING THE FEARFULNESS OF TIANSHAN TONGLAO IN OTHERS

TOSSING AN OBJECT ACROSS MOUNTAIN RANGES OVER A DISTANCE OF 3 CHINESE MILES

CRYSTAL CLEAR VOICE TRANSMISSION OVER MOUNTAIN PEAKS OVER A DISTANCE OF 3+ CHINESE MILES

EXERTING TREMOR IN A PAIR OF MONSTERS OF PEARL CLIFF W/EXQUISITE SWORD EXTENSION & BLOOD-BOILING TAP

ah yes but you see, although Xuzhu did not use his best against ding chunqiu, it would be most likely he did not use his best against zhuo bufan. Ding chunqiu wouldve experienced the same problems as zhuo bufan (eg high internal power) and yet managed to hold for quite some time, given the same kind spirit of xuzhu. Also keep in mind, xuzhu might have been soft on ding chunqiu, but it was a fight that xuzhu wanted to win. I think this should show that ding chunqiu actually had a harder time fighter with xuzhu and yet holding for a long time. Also note that mu rongfu earlier also fought with ding chunqiu for a LONG time, thus making it (at least) Xuzhu>Dingchunqiu><or equal to Mu RongFu>Zhuo BuFan.

btw xuzhu managed to seize zhuo bufan's sword, and his nick is the Sword God, so it might suggest something about his skills.

you mentioned Wu Boss and Mu Rongfu being 当真动手相斗，也非片刻间便能取胜. note the 非片刻间. Which half decent fighter can mu rongfu defeat in no time? 片刻间 suggests REALLY quick fight, almost within seconds.

And yes i do agree that the monks at celestial temple will be on par with ding chunqiu, however the first post said "the best of the celestial temple monks" so i was thinking of 1 or 2 of the monks, not all of them.


EDIT: grammar and spelling.

[PJ]

ah yes but you see, although Xuzhu did not use his best against ding chunqiu, it would be most likely he did not use his best against zhuo bufan.

What Xuzhu "used" against Zhuo Bufan was Auto-Protect. It is natural and automatic, so it was actually his "best" in that space.

Ding chunqiu wouldve experienced the same problems as zhuo bufan (eg high internal power) and yet managed to hold for quite some time, given the same kind spirit of xuzhu. Also keep in mind, xuzhu might have been soft on ding chunqiu, but it was a fight that xuzhu wanted to win. I think this should show that ding chunqiu actually had a harder time fighter with xuzhu and yet holding for a long time.

How about let's picture this scenario:
have Ding Chunqiu attack Xuzhu with a sword like Zhuo Bufan did.
What do you envision would happen?
Would Ding Chunqiu be able to do better than Zhuo Bufan?

Also note that mu rongfu earlier also fought with ding chunqiu for a LONG time, thus making it (at least) Xuzhu>Dingchunqiu><or equal to Mu RongFu>Zhuo BuFan.

Not the part about Zhuo Bufan.

btw xuzhu managed to seize zhuo bufan's sword, and his nick is the Sword God, so it might suggest something about his skills.

It didn't look good against Xuzhu, but even a Great might not look so hot against this demi-god who has 3 times the internal energy of Tianshan Tonglao.

Plus, Xuzhu specialized in a technique to deal with weapons. In ROCH, Huang Rong snatched the Dog-Beating Stick from Huodo in a few stances. Huang Rong was only slightly better than Huodo, but b/c she used a special technique, she was able to perform an impressive instance of snatching.

you mentioned Wu Boss and Mu Rongfu being 当真动手相斗，也非片刻间便能取胜. note the 非片刻间. Which half decent fighter can mu rongfu defeat in no time? 片刻间 suggests REALLY quick fight, almost within seconds.

片刻间 = short time

非片刻间 = not a short time

Which could be a long time.

Murong Fu thought that Boss Wu had less internal energy, but had the advantage of possessing mysterious techniques.

[CrazyT]

When did this SWORD GOD appear in the novel? I wanna read about him myself.

[flamer]

What Xuzhu "used" against Zhuo Bufan was Auto-Protect. It is natural and automatic, so it was actually his "best" in that space.



How about let's picture this scenario:
have Ding Chunqiu attack Xuzhu with a sword like Zhuo Bufan did.
What do you envision would happen?
Would Ding Chunqiu be able to do better than Zhuo Bufan?



Not the part about Zhuo Bufan.



It didn't look good against Xuzhu, but even a Great might not look so hot against this demi-god who has 3 times the internal energy of Tianshan Tonglao.

Plus, Xuzhu specialized in a technique to deal with weapons. In ROCH, Huang Rong snatched the Dog-Beating Stick from Huodo in a few stances. Huang Rong was only slightly better than Huodo, but b/c she used a special technique, she was able to perform an impressive instance of snatching.



片刻间 = short time

非片刻间 = not a short time

Which could be a long time.

Murong Fu thought that Boss Wu had less internal energy, but had the advantage of possessing mysterious techniques.

ah yes but since XuZhu used auto protect on ZhuoBuFan, that would mean the "auto protect" will also be there for Ding ChunQiu, posing the same problem, and yet ding chunqiu managed to hold off xuzhu for quite some time. and also note between the encounter of zhuo bufan and ding chunqiu, xuzhu spent quite some time at LingJiu Palace while he practiced a lot of Tianshan Tonglao's kung fu. So this should mean that Xuzhu is actually better in terms of kung fu and internal (slightly) by the time he fought ding chunqiu.

And also i think this thread is about Zhuo BuFan's general skill at fighting, not just his prowess with sword. So i think the comparison of ding chunqiu using his sword is not very relevant.

也非片刻间便能取胜 directly translates to cannot defeat him within a short time. As i said, which half decent fighter can mu rongfu defeat in a "short time"? and 也非片刻间 actually means although not a short time, it will not be too long before mu rongfu wins. The 也非片刻间 is never used to describe battles which can go over hundreds of stances (or even 50).

Overall, we all agree that xuzhu is quite a lot better than zhuo bu fan, and bufan will not hold as long as ding chunqiu in a fight with xuzhu. while mu rongfu can fight ding chunqiu for a long time without winning or losing. So i think it quite supports the theory that:

Xuzhu>Ding ChunQiu who is equal/greater/less than Mu RongFu>Zhuo BuFan

[PJ]

ah yes but since XuZhu used auto protect on ZhuoBuFan, that would mean the "auto protect" will also be there for Ding ChunQiu, posing the same problem, and yet ding chunqiu managed to hold off xuzhu for quite some time.

It was mentioned that Xuzhu feared Ding Chunqiu's poisons and did not dare go near him during the fight, which reduced Xuzhu's stance lethality greatly. Whereas Zhuo Bufan made physical contact with Xuzhu. If Zhuo Bufan and Xuzhu just exchanged stances from 10+ feet apart, I'm sure Zhuo Bufan can last quite a while longer too.

Also, keep in mind that Ding Chunqiu already knew about Xuzhu's prowess, whereas Zhuo Bufan had NO IDEA. Zhuo Bufan would not have thrust a delicate sword straight at Xuzhu if he knew that it wouldn't do any damage. So Ding had the advantage of being more familiar with the opponent.

and also note between the encounter of zhuo bufan and ding chunqiu, xuzhu spent quite some time at LingJiu Palace while he practiced a lot of Tianshan Tonglao's kung fu. So this should mean that Xuzhu is actually better in terms of kung fu and internal (slightly) by the time he fought ding chunqiu.

True,

And also i think this thread is about Zhuo BuFan's general skill at fighting, not just his prowess with sword. So i think the comparison of ding chunqiu using his sword is not very relevant.

The sword is powered by internal energy. Jin Yong has a tendency to say that any fighter with abundant internal energy can do wonders with a weapon. So if you give Ding Chunqiu a sword, it would still be powerful when used with his internal energy.

也非片刻间便能取胜 directly translates to cannot defeat him within a short time. As i said, which half decent fighter can mu rongfu defeat in a "short time"?

He defeated the combined forces of Duan Zhengchun and Evil #3 pretty quickly.

and 也非片刻间 actually means although not a short time, it will not be too long before mu rongfu wins.

Incorrect. See evidence below.

The 也非片刻间 is never used to describe battles which can go over hundreds of stances (or even 50).

Not true.

DGSD chapter 14:
乔峰见包不同与矮长老势均力故，非片刻间能分胜败

Bao Butong and Elder Xi are basically on the same level.
If they were to fight, it would certainly take several hundreds of stances to decide the winner.
And yet, the novel used the same expression 非片刻间 to describe their fight duration.

Overall, we all agree that xuzhu is quite a lot better than zhuo bu fan, and bufan will not hold as long as ding chunqiu in a fight with xuzhu.

I do not agree with your second assertion regarding Zhuo Bufan.
If you put him in Ding Chunqiu's situation, or if you put Ding Chunqiu in his situation, there is no guarantee that Ding would outperform SWORD GOD.

Their circumstances were quite different.

Let me give you another example to illustrate that the duration of fight alone doesn't tell the whole story.

When Duan Yanqing fought Duan Zhengchun, the fight lasted over 80 stances. And yet, Xiao Feng thought that Duan Zhengchun would not last ONE stance against him. So does that mean Xiao Feng is 80+ times better than Duan Yanqing? Or at the very least, this makes Xiao Feng looks like 10+ times better than Duan Yanqing, which is definitely not the case.

[PJ]

by the way flamer, I do enjoy having this discussion with you. Rarely do people discuss the real merit of SWORD GOD, and you have made some valid points that I hadn't thought about before.

[flamer]

It was mentioned that Xuzhu feared Ding Chunqiu's poisons and did not dare go near him during the fight, which reduced Xuzhu's stance lethality greatly. Whereas Zhuo Bufan made physical contact with Xuzhu. If Zhuo Bufan and Xuzhu just exchanged stances from 10+ feet apart, I'm sure Zhuo Bufan can last quite a while longer too.

Also, keep in mind that Ding Chunqiu already knew about Xuzhu's prowess, whereas Zhuo Bufan had NO IDEA. Zhuo Bufan would not have thrust a delicate sword straight at Xuzhu if he knew that it wouldn't do any damage. So Ding had the advantage of being more familiar with the opponent.



True,



The sword is powered by internal energy. Jin Yong has a tendency to say that any fighter with abundant internal energy can do wonders with a weapon. So if you give Ding Chunqiu a sword, it would still be powerful when used with his internal energy.



He defeated the combined forces of Duan Zhengchun and Evil #3 pretty quickly.



Incorrect. See evidence below.



Not true.

DGSD chapter 14:
乔峰见包不同与矮长老势均力故，非片刻间能分胜败

Bao Butong and Elder Xi are basically on the same level.
If they were to fight, it would certainly take several hundreds of stances to decide the winner.
And yet, the novel used the same expression 非片刻间 to describe their fight duration.



I do not agree with your second assertion regarding Zhuo Bufan.
If you put him in Ding Chunqiu's situation, or if you put Ding Chunqiu in his situation, there is no guarantee that Ding would outperform SWORD GOD.

Their circumstances were quite different.

Let me give you another example to illustrate that the duration of fight alone doesn't tell the whole story.

When Duan Yanqing fought Duan Zhengchun, the fight lasted over 80 stances. And yet, Xiao Feng thought that Duan Zhengchun would not last ONE stance against him. So does that mean Xiao Feng is 80+ times better than Duan Yanqing? Or at the very least, this makes Xiao Feng looks like 10+ times better than Duan Yanqing, which is definitely not the case.

Hmm help me refresh my memory, when did ding chunqiu find out about xuzhu's skills before fighting him at shaolin? (i remember now :P after Wu Yazi passed on the energy). Still even if zhuo bufan can last a bit longer but i still dun think he can last for as long as ding chunqiu, seeing how quickly he lost his first encounter. If he is really as good as he is thought to be, he would be able to have more exchanges in the first encounter, even if he might have underestimated xuzhu.

mu rongfu defeated them quickly but are you saying in the case of Boss Wu, mu rongfu can do it as quickly or even take longer than what he took with duan yanqing and #3? Cuz i dun think Boss Wu is quite as good as duan yanqing and #3 so i would assume mu rongfu will take slightly less time with Wu.

You made the point that a person do not need to be vastly better than another to beat him quickly. so why wouldnt that be the case for when Boss Wu was awed by Zhuo Bufan's skills? So if zhuo bufan is not vastly better than Boss Wu or the leader BuFan killed, its more than likely that zhuo bufan is about the same as duan yanqing, possibly better, and in the meantime making him not as good as mu rongfu.


Yes i enjoy these conversations too makes me recall on the story and go in-depth.

[flamer]

Yeah but you can say the same for TSTL, Li Qiushui, Xiao Feng, Xiao Yuanshan, Murong Bo, Duan Yu, Xu Zhu and Jiumozhi.

Sweeper monk was the only guy who won against an Elite class.

oh hmm but i wouldve thought Xiao Feng def You Tanzhi, Duan Yu def Mu RongFu and Xu Zhu def Ding Chunqiu.

but all the fights except for Xiao Feng's were not really decisive i guess, and You Tanzhi might struggle a bit to get into the Elites range.

[Tazzy1972]

how long do you all think YTZ trained in YJJ? To get to that level, almost as good as Xuan Ci monk, within that short a time frame, i can imagine how powerful it is. For ZWJ think it was mentioned that he trained for it for 5 years in isolation and he got that big a boost.

[CC]

how long do you all think YTZ trained in YJJ? To get to that level, almost as good as Xuan Ci monk, within that short a time frame, i can imagine how powerful it is. For ZWJ think it was mentioned that he trained for it for 5 years in isolation and he got that big a boost.

About a year. It was stated that he trained hard at it because of Ah Zi and had mastered about 60-70% of it.

He got a further big boost when the Ice Poison strengthened his power even more.

I need to check how the 3rd edition modified those few points though.

And I think You was much stronger than a Xuan monk. The Xuan Monk's would not be able to match Xiao Feng's palms. In addition, You could match long distance palms with the best Xuan monk (Xuan Ci) even though

1. He had not trained in advanced palm technique compared to Xuan Ci's Warrior Attendent Palm

2. His palm blast power was spread over a wider area compared to Xuan Ci's concentrated blast. Yet his wider area still carried the same force per unit area.