Pre-Heaven skill and [元氣] in general

[Athena]

A friend and me had a discussion on the Pre-heaven Skill (Xiantian Gong) a month or so ago. Actually, the discussion was inspired by PJ. PJ created a thread on internal energy healing/regaining lost energy etc.
Reverend Yideng was mentioned and used as an example, his healing of Huang Rong was also compared to Xiao Feng trying to cure A Zhu and A Zi.
Anyways, we discussed that in certain cases of 'internal injuries', there is little damage or damage that is not lethal to the "Yuan Qi."
Ancient Chinese medical science (which is often linked to Taoist internal/external alchemy due to Taoist priests trying to reach immortality and hence greatly contributing to the medical science of the ancient times), yuan qi is the original qi which you have from birth (pre-heaven energy/ life force).
Apparently, it is believed that this congenital qi is a source of considerable power, if one could tap into this source you would be able to accomplish unimaginable feats. Therefore, qi practitioners [煉氣士] (lian qi shi) were also seen as sorcerers, because they were able to perform fantastic things. In fact the term [煉氣士] was synonymous to the term sorcerer/wizard. Some translators have even translated the [煉氣士] to sorcerer. I believe some English translations of the novel [封神演義] (Investiture of the Gods/Creation of the Gods) have translated the term this way.

Back to reverend Yideng, we knew that South Emperor had to use the combination of Yiyang Finger and Pre-heaven skill to heal Huang Rong. We also know that the combination of these two skills were powerful enough to nullify the Toad Stance's stored energy.
So, basically we believed that the pre-heaven skill is a cultivation technique that allowed the practitioner to tap, merge, channel your life force energy with later acquired internal energy. Also the name of the skill [Xiantian Gong] [先天功], Pre-Heaven Skill would point to that this skill should have something to do with using your [xiantian qi/yuan qi].
We based this on how reverend Yideng cured Huang Rong. South Emperor cured Huang Rong, but in the process his yuan qi was severely depleted. We believed that he used the Pre-Heaven Skill to tap into his own life force and used Yiyang Finger to channel it out to replenish the yuan qi of someone else (Huang Rong). Doing that will take a heavy toll on the body, you essentially give up a piece of your own life force up.

Making use of your own yuan qi and merging it with your own later on acquired internal energy is a very difficult task. From what my friend told me about reaching the point of merging and tapping into your yuan qi, it requires a deep and profound level of attainment in your cultivation to do so. Maybe, that is why Zhou Botong and the Seven Masters SEEMINGLY never learnt it. (But we cannot be certain that they never studied this skill). Pre-Heaven Skill is probably a key to doing that, it was always suggested that Central Divinity had the most profound and deepest internal energy.
This trail of thought made us think that the internal energy cultivation techniques of the Xiaoyao School operate in a similar way.
They are more or less famous for their motto: If the energy flows within us, we live. If the energy is gone, we perish too.
We see that Wuya Zi, Tianshan Tonglao and Li Qiushui all died after they suffered from energy depletion. In our opinion, we think that Xiaoyao energy cultivation skills are to use (un)orthodox methods to fuse/merge your yuan qi with later acquired Qi to form a new power source of energy, namely Xiaoyao energy (maybe even Beiming energy).

Xiaoyao School's internal alchemy cultivation is all about messing up your normal qi, breathing flow (see how Tonglao forced Xuzhu to recite those verses on their way to Xixia which were quite difficult to do).
Beiming Shengong was an art to absorb and to merge all the energies into one, Beiming energy.
Xixing Dafa is derived from Beiming Shengong but this art was not as good as the original. Mainly, it failed to have a formula to merge the energies to one. The conflicting energies damaged even the life force of Ren Woxing, Xixing Dafa did not have the technique to merge the outer energies with the practitioner's yuan qi.
The only trouble we encountered was Jiumozhi, he did not die when his internal energy was absorbed by Duan Yu even though Jiumozhi studied Xiaoyao School energy.
We figured that Jiumozhi started his Xiaoyao energy study rather late and it has not fused (entirely) with his own energy. Furthermore, in the new edition we learn that his primary energy basis is the Fiery Blade Skill.
Therefore, we assumed that this was the reason why Jiumozhi survived his ordeal with Duan Yu.
With this we also believed that because some martial artists have not merged their acquired energy with their own congenital energy, they do not die when they lose their internal energy. For instance, Hong Qigong’s acquired energy was almost totally gone after purging out the West Venom’s poison. Furthermore, the blast from Ouyang Feng damaged his yuan qi, even though he was not in mortal danger anymore but Hong Qigong was after that incident even weaker than an average man.

We also think that Jiuyin, Jiuyang, Yijing, and so on are about building up a new energy source and merging it with the existing one you have from birth.
This theory is just a speculation of two Jin Yong fanatics and a lot of is based on my friend’s knowledge on Taoist alchemy.


* I am writing all this nonsense down to distract myself from the fact that in about two months, it's my big day. I just needed to do something that was totally unrelated to that event, I wrote this all in a hurry based on a conversation I had with a friend over a month ago. So, there could be room for improvements.

[CC]

This trail of thought made us think that the internal energy cultivation techniques of the Xiaoyao School operate in a similar way.
They are more or less famous for their motto: If the energy flows within us, we live. If the energy is gone, we perish too.

Makes sense. That also can serve to explain why they can live so long, the cultivated qi reinforces the Yuanqi. That should let Xu Zhu live to about 200 years old then?

It also serves to help explain Tonglao's age reversal due to screw up of the Yuan Qi.

The only trouble we encountered was Jiumozhi, we did not die when his internal energy was absorbed by Duan Yu even though Jiumozhi studied Xiaoyao School energy..

I certainly hope not! Would be dangerous to read DGSD if so! (*sorry! couldn't resist!)

We figured that Jiumozhi started his Xiaoyao energy study rather late and it has not fused (entirely) with his own energy. Furthermore, in the new edition we learn that his primary energy basis is the Fiery Blade Skill.
Therefore, we assumed that this was the reason why Jiumozhi survived his ordeal with Duan Yu.

Might also have to do with him learning only 7 out of 8 volumes of the XWXG? (3rd ed) or the Yi Jinjing (2nd ed)?

With this we also believed that because some martial artists have not merged their acquired energy with their own congenital energy, they do not die when they lose their internal energy. For instance, Hong Qigong’s acquired energy was almost totally gone after purging out the West Venom’s poison. Furthermore, the blast from Ouyang Feng damaged his yuan qi, even though he was not in mortal danger anymore but Hong Qigong was after that incident even weaker than an average man.

That theoretically leaves only Xian Tian Gong and XYP arts as the only skills which successfully accomplishes the task of merging Yuan Qi with cultivated Qi.

[Athena]

Woops, stupid typo. Thanks for catching that one .

This entire concept also explains a bit why we have certain people losing their internal energy and still living; Xie Xun.
Reverend Zhiguang should be one of these too, he lost his martial arts (I'm thinking internal energy). How does one lose one's martial arts? For martial artists their techniques are part of their being, how can they lose that?

You're right about Jiumozhi. Those could important factors too, as to why he survived the Duan Yu's Beiming Shengong ordeal.

Although, Hong Qigong survived the West Venom ambush, he was also convinced that he wouldn't live long anymore. He often suggested that death was round the corner for him, in my opinion he realised that his yuan qi was damaged and that he couldn't use his own cultivated qi to replenish the damage to his yuan qi.

Xiantian Gong and Xiaoyao arts may be of the same type of internal energy cultivation techniques, I do think that Xiantian Gong is a safer and orthodox way of merging the energies together.

[CC]

Heibaizi was crippled till he could not even stand up after LHC leeched him.

Maybe Xi Xing Da Fa leeches Yuan Qi as well? I doubt he learnt Xian Tian Gong.

In any case, I think we are over analysing. I am 99.99999% sure JY did not think about such background 'wuxia logic' reasons when writing his book.

[odbayarb2000]

It was an amazing explanation. Thanks for enlightenment.
Congratulations on your big day.

[Athena]

Exactly! Heibai Zi: In my opinion, the reason is that because Xixing Dafa is derived from Beiming Shengong, it has the elements of yuan qi study. However, because it is a sort of a mongrel version of BMSG, it is quite aggressive in form instead of having a harmonious symbiotic relationship with the practitioner XXDF has turned the relationship into a harmful parasitic one. It bites off more than it can chew, even absorbing the yuan qi of the victim and adding another stream of energy in the body wanting to add that stream to the yuan qi too.

I know, we are over analysing like mad.
Sometimes, there are certain things in Mr Cha's book that do not make any sense at all. However, certain things do coincide with certain existing or ancient beliefs on qi, martial arts, philosophy and so on. Whether he did this intentionally or unintentionally, that's a good guess.
At least, his books and theories on martial arts in his stories make a lot more sense than the average Wuxia novel.

Thanks, odbayarb2000!

[JamesG]

Thanks Athena.
It was good to see this thread on Xiantian Gong since we thrashed this around a few months back when it first appeared in the LOCH translation. Either HYS or Han Solo dug up an old thread from a few years ago about the same subject. It was the 'Pre-heaven' concept that is hard for the Western mind to 'get' and got me digging around on Taoist and Tai Qi sites for enlightenment. The problem for foxs_ and I was to come up with words that English speaking readers could easily accept and understand that it referred to the internal energy that a person developes before birth. [For westerners the concept of 'internal energy' is strange, yet we readily accept the idea of a 'life force'.]

[Dennis Chen]

That's because their concept for "internal energy" is the soul. Which is static and unchanging without Jesus Christ.

Couldn't Yi Jing Jing merge LHC's different energies? Or was it just replacing them with it's own?

[CC]

Couldn't Yi Jing Jing merge LHC's different energies? Or was it just replacing them with it's own?

The novel's description was never clear on that bit. It seemed to suggest that the YJJ dissipated the other streams IMHO.

But for YTZ, it was explicit that the YJJ energies fused with the Iceworm poison.

[CC]

Sometimes, there are certain things in Mr Cha's book that do not make any sense at all. However, certain things do coincide with certain existing or ancient beliefs on qi, martial arts, philosophy and so on. Whether he did this intentionally or unintentionally, that's a good guess.
At least, his books and theories on martial arts in his stories make a lot more sense than the average Wuxia novel.

I agree 100% with that until Linghu Chong and his surprisingly positioned sword came along.

Oh and back to YYZ. If Yideng was using his Yuan Qi to heal HR, does this mean that YYZ had this unique property of being able to channel the Yuan Qi? Or was this only made possibly because Yideng had _both_ YYZ and Xian Tian Gong?

And does 9 Yin have this unique property of helping to restore Yuan Qi?

[PJ]

I agree 100% with that until Linghu Chong and his surprisingly positioned sword came along.

We would have lost numerous great moments of posting fun without Chong'ge and His Surprising Positions.

[Athena]

We thought that Yiyang Finger alone might not have this property. Because the four discipples of Yideng and Yideng, himself, seem to emphasize that the combination of both was needed.
Furthermore, in the new edition it was said that practitioners of Yiyang Finger needed a little bit of time to regenerate. Yideng (especially in the ROCH) time did not have this apparent problem at all anymore.
We thought that Xiantian Gong 'overcame' this energy generation problem of Yiyang Finger.

The reason why we think that energy generation of Yiyang Finger is a bit slow is because Yiyang Finger does not have a formula is good as Xiantiang Gong to tap into the yuan qi.

[CFT]

* I am writing all this nonsense down to distract myself from the fact that in about two months, it's my big day. I just needed to do something that was totally unrelated to that event

Marriage? Congratulations!

[yittz]

We thought that Yiyang Finger alone might not have this property. Because the four discipples of Yideng and Yideng, himself, seem to emphasize that the combination of both was needed.
Furthermore, in the new edition it was said that practitioners of Yiyang Finger needed a little bit of time to regenerate. Yideng (especially in the ROCH) time did not have this apparent problem at all anymore.
We thought that Xiantian Gong 'overcame' this energy generation problem of Yiyang Finger.

The reason why we think that energy generation of Yiyang Finger is a bit slow is because Yiyang Finger does not have a formula is good as Xiantiang Gong to tap into the yuan qi.

I have queries:
The use of YYZ by DZM, and then later in a group with 4 other Ben monks to heal Duan Yu - how does this relate to this.
How did QQR become aware of YD acquiring XTG (if we assume that's why he attacked ZBT's son)? Did QQR assume YYZ by itself was sufficient to heal a baby? Did WCY spread the news to scare off West Poison?

[CFT]

Given that YYZ is an accupoint/pressure skill, it is logical that it can be used to treat a range of internal energies. This does not necessarily require XTG. If that was the case then no one would be able to heal internal injuries, YYZ or not.

So QQR simply wanted YD to deplete his internal energy.

In the original story WCY and YD swapped skills but I think in the latest revision they did not (or was it the other way around). Does this mean that YYZ+XTG is not necessarily the counter to the Toad skill?

[Athena]

Thanks CFT.

In Duan Yu's case, the four monks and Duan Zhengming tried to purge his body from a strange 'poison.'
It was quite different from Huang Rong's case, Huang Rong suffered from a nearly mortal blow from Qiu Qianren that basically rendered her own qi and qi flow useless.
In my opinion, what Yideng was much more difficult.
When Guo Jing was injured by Ouyang Feng in LOCH, he could still use a bit of his own internal energy. Huang Rong was there to assist, basically Guo Jing used his own internal power to heal his yuan qi. Huang Rong's role was to push a bit of her own parts of her own internal strenghth into Guo Jing's body to assist in the qi flow to open up the blocked meridians. This exchange of energies will greatly benefit both the victim and the healer, unlike other qi healing techniques.

Guo Jing couldn't use this technique to help Huang Rong, because Huang Rong could not use her own internal strength anymore after suffering from the Iron Palm. Hong Qigong had the same problem, by the time Guo Jing came to the island and after Ouyang Feng and Ouyang Ke left the isle, it was too late. He had almost no energy left and the little that was still left he could not 'activate' anymore. Guo Jing couldn't risk trying this method on the isle while Ouyangs were on the island.

The Sanskrit part of Jiuyin had a method to probably re-build the lost energy and to restore and replenish the life force.
Seemingly, Hong Qigong's injury is more severe than Yideng, Hong needed more than a year to fully recover. Whereas, Yideng only needed three months.

In editions two and three, it was an exchange of skills. YYZ and XTG is the bane of Hama Gong.

Most likely, Qiu Qianren heard the news. Ouyang Feng heard the news too. I mean Central Divinity visits South Emperor only one year after the Huashan Tournament. That's quite big news, although both Ouyang and Qiu may not have known the full details, but they could always force the truth out of some Dali Palace guard/minister/eunuch/attendant and deduced the rest.

A few years after Qiu Qianren's attack, Ouyang Feng severly injured Wu Santong. South Emperor (by that time, he had already abdicated the throne) used the combo of XTG and YYZ to heal Wu Santong. (LOCH editions 2 and 3). Yideng had to use five years time to recover from using these two skills to heal his disciple.

[CFT]

The Sanskrit part of Jiuyin had a method to probably re-build the lost energy and to restore and replenish the life force.
Seemingly, Hong Qigong's injure is more severe than Yideng, Hong needed more than a year to fully recover. Whereas, Yideng only needed three months.

Hong Qigong suffered damage to his meridians which needed repair whereas Yideng only needed to recover the lost internal energy.

I think I read in one of the translations that Hong actually suffered more than necessary. If he had remained active after his injury and performed his usual martial training then the external nature of his arts would have helped his recuperation.

[kyss of the sword]

yiyang zhi was the technique by which the accupoints were cleared correctly and xian tian shengong was the energy required to commence healing. if yideng used to much of his xiantian shengong, he could have died, as it was, he was almost disabled. HQG lost most of his acquired qi because he energy channels became blocked and he couldn't cultivate his qi, so it wasted away.

[PJ]

Finally had a chance to carefully read this topic. Many interesting points. Thanks to Athena for investigating this matter.

Athena, you said that Pre-Heaven Skill taps into the life force energy (LSE) and combines it with the later-on acquired internal energy... we know this has a disadvantage, which has been observed with Xiaoyao Pai Elders' incidents: If the energy flows within us, we live. If the energy is gone, we perish too.

So what is the advantage of getting your LSE involved? Athena you said that Apparently, it is believed that this congenital qi is a source of considerable power, if one could tap into this source you would be able to accomplish unimaginable feats. Since Yideng is the only 1 of 4 living Greats who tapped into LSE, this would suggest he originally should be better than the other 3, but unfortunately he exhausted his life energy twice.

In LOCH, Yideng healed Huang Rong completely (is that right?), while in DGSD, Xiao Feng could only keep Ah Zi alive, but couldn't heal her completely. Ah Zi was basically a dead person; even the doctors said so. So that's an indication that Xiao Feng hadn't tapped into LSE yet. And furthermore, maybe Yideng could have healed Ah Zi completely, albeit he would need a few years to replenish his lost LSE.

In general, tapping into LSE should give you a big boost, but as with most things in martial arts comparisons, I don't think we can say that one who has tapped into LSE is automatically better than one who hasn't. Furthermore, do we have any evidence from the novels to show that tapping into LSE > not tapping into LSE?

Another question begged is how much blow does it take to disrupt your LSE? I suppose it should depend on both the injurer and the injuree. Ouyang Feng's blow injured Hong Qigong's LSE while Qiu Qianren's blow injured Huang Rong's LSE. But in DGSD, Gao Shengtai received an ambushing blow from Evil #2 that injured his du meridian, but it wasn't said that his LSE was injured. Western Venom and Iron Palm Floating on Water are much more powerful than Evil #2, so I'm guessing that's why they were able to disrupt their opponent's LSE while Evil #2 wasn't.

Back to the death issue - the 3 Xiaoyao Pai elders actually died after their LSE depleted, whereas Yideng lived both times he exhausted his LSE. This suggests that Yideng didn't completely exhaust his LSE, whereas the 3 elders did.

Related to the above... normally when your acquired energy is gone, but your life force isn't, then you should be OK, as we saw with Jiumozhi. And if you haven't merged your LSE with acquired energies, then you're less likely to suffer a fatal depletion. However, we saw with Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng's mutual KO that it's still possible to exhaust your LSE even if you haven't tapped into it for martial arts purposes.

Furthermore in SPW, Zuo Lengchan was said to have exhausted his LSE when he fought Ren Woxing. 向问天知道左冷禅虽然得胜，但已大损真元，只怕非花上几个月时光，无法复元. I wonder if it's because his acquired energy was already merged with LSE (like Yideng), or if he simply exhausted beyond his acquired energy (like the case with Hong and Ouyang's double KO)

But I think in general, if you HAVE tapped into your LSE, it's more dangerous for you. Using Yideng as an example, I imagine that if he has tapped into LSE, then when he received a blow of xxx magnitude, he would suffer more damage than if he received the same magnitude blow when he hadn't tapped into LSE yet.

[Dennis Chen]

There's no question that Yi Deng is a better, stronger healer.