What would Guo Xiang think of Miejue?

[devilz91]

If Guo Xiang was somehow still alive and knows everything that Miejue did, what would she think of her as a person and how she lead Emei? Would she be utterly disgusted? Disappointed? Proud?

[Ken Cheng]

Perhaps a bit ambivalent. We cannot be certain what personality transformations Gwok Seung underwent later in her life, particularly after the deaths of her parents, the occupation of her country by foreign invaders, and the failure of her quest to find Yeung Gor. In some ways, Mit Jeut See Tai was a logical, though extreme extension of the direction that Gwok Seung herself might have been headed.

[juvetb]

In some ways, Mit Jeut See Tai was a logical, though extreme extension of the direction that Gwok Seung herself might have been headed.

I'm quite curious why you think this might be the case, and would be quite eager to hear a bit more

[PJ]

On the bright side, she was more righteous than the leaders of Kunlun, Huashan, and Kongtong.

[Doc Kwok]

On the bright side, she was more righteous than the leaders of Kunlun, Huashan, and Kongtong.

Self-righteous, definitely. Ultimately though, she still plays just as dirty if not more so, it's just less obvious on the surface, and is more deadly because of it.

Oddly enough, Miejue makes me think of Hung 7 Gong. Towards the end of LOCH, he claimed to have killed over 200 people, but they all thoroughly deserved it. From what we know of Miejue, I think she would say something very similar. I think that HSDS acts like a dark mirror to the first two parts of the trilogy, in this case showing just how scary such a self-righteous person can be in a less than black-and-white world!

[Ken Cheng]

I'm quite curious why you think this might be the case, and would be quite eager to hear a bit more

1. From her youth, Gwok Seung had the nickname "Little East Heretic." Granted, during her youth, her "heresy" was rather benign, but anyone who merits the title "heretic," however lightheartedly, has at least a kernel of mischief in her.

2. In Jin Yong's stories (heck, in wuxia in general), there is a long list of female characters whose characters take a turn for the worse after being jilted in love. Madame Ma (DGSD), Lee Mok Sau, Kau Cheen Chek (both ROCH), and Chow Chi Yerk (HSDS) are just a few examples. Gwok Seung was aggrieved enough by being unable to find Yeung Gor that she became a nun; who knows where else her mind traveled in later years as the burn of that experience deepened?

3. The loss of her parents and siblings must have traumatized Gwok Seung. True, other characters in wuxia saw their parents die and didn't go to the dark side as a result, but factor it in with Gwok Seung's other experiences, and perhaps it drove her to a breaking point.

4. "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree." With both Mit Jeut and Chow Chi Yerk becoming back-to-back Ngor Mei Sect Leaders, I suspect that something was probably not quite right with the sect right from the foundation. Most likely, Gwok Seung never became the full-blown monster that her two successors became, but I would not be surprised if there was some flaw in the system right from the start.

None of this is remotely PROOF that Gwok Seung went dark in her later years, but it's a pet theory of mine that's long made some sense to me considering how the sect turned out in HSDS.

[wkeej]

Based on my limited memory, Meijue hates the Ming Sect; disallowed ZZR to marry ZWJ and asked ZZR to stab ZWJ.

Impression of GX is she is always adorable. If GX is still alive, she will possibly disapproves what Meijue did.

[tape]

I more or less agree with Ken that Guo Xiang could easily have become some cold blooded nun (unless Yang Guo showed up!) based on what we see of female wuxia characters. Unrequited love + powerful martal arts + no family doesn't usually equal a very good outcome.

Miejue had an extreme vendetta against the Ming Sect because her martial brother had a duel with Yang Xiao and died of heartbreak or some such after getting utterly defeated -- she was supposed to marry him I believe. Perhaps her character wasn't so extreme until then? After all, "Miejue" should be the name she took when she officially became a nun after the marriage fell through, and maybe she was a sweeter person when her master passed the leadership onto her?

I don't think we can reliably judge someone by their previous master, since Zhiruo at the time of the passing was still a sweet and kind girl compared to Miejue. Huang Rong isn't quite like Hong Qigong, I don't imagine Wang Jiantong representative of Xiao Feng, etc

I always found it a bit weird that the feelings for Yang Guo that Guo Xiang had were pretty much pure in ROCH, but in HSDS they include her wandering around pining for a married man for years. What would she even do or say if she met him? Why did the Yellow Clothed Lady not save E'mei when they were trapped in the Pagoda by Zhao Min? We know Yang Guo instructed her to take care of the Beggar's Sect, but I wonder if he told them to leave those crazy E'mei nuns alone.

[Ken Cheng]

Based on my limited memory, Meijue hates the Ming Sect; disallowed ZZR to marry ZWJ and asked ZZR to stab ZWJ.

We knew Mit Jeut as a middle-aged/old woman, whose greatest life traumas were in her past. We really don't know what she was like in her youth, and what developments led her to become the cruel woman we saw in HSDS.

Impression of GX is she is always adorable. If GX is still alive, she will possibly disapproves what Meijue did.

By the same token, we only saw Gwok Seung as a teenager between the ages of 15 and 19, with the greatest traumas of her lifetime ahead of her. We don't know how her subsequent experiences might have transformed her.

[devilz91]

1. From her youth, Gwok Seung had the nickname "Little East Heretic." Granted, during her youth, her "heresy" was rather benign, but anyone who merits the title "heretic," however lightheartedly, has at least a kernel of mischief in her.

2. In Jin Yong's stories (heck, in wuxia in general), there is a long list of female characters whose characters take a turn for the worse after being jilted in love. Madame Ma (DGSD), Lee Mok Sau, Kau Cheen Chek (both ROCH), and Chow Chi Yerk (HSDS) are just a few examples. Gwok Seung was aggrieved enough by being unable to find Yeung Gor that she became a nun; who knows where else her mind traveled in later years as the burn of that experience deepened?

3. The loss of her parents and siblings must have traumatized Gwok Seung. True, other characters in wuxia saw their parents die and didn't go to the dark side as a result, but factor it in with Gwok Seung's other experiences, and perhaps it drove her to a breaking point.

4. "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree." With both Mit Jeut and Chow Chi Yerk becoming back-to-back Ngor Mei Sect Leaders, I suspect that something was probably not quite right with the sect right from the foundation. Most likely, Gwok Seung never became the full-blown monster that her two successors became, but I would not be surprised if there was some flaw in the system right from the start.

None of this is remotely PROOF that Gwok Seung went dark in her later years, but it's a pet theory of mine that's long made some sense to me considering how the sect turned out in HSDS.

This seems like a good analysis. I never thought about it that way.

[ecthelias]

The evidence of her later life from HSDS suggests she became enlightened. (As were Yideng/Sweeper/JueYuen).

She would therefore not have approved of MieJue.

[Ken Cheng]

The evidence of her later life from HSDS suggests she became enlightened. (As were Yideng/Sweeper/JueYuen).

She would therefore not have approved of MieJue.

That would be such a boring cliche, though. "Blah blah blah" and achieves enlightenment. It's almost predictable. Older Gwok Seung is much more interesting if we imagine her as a latent sociopath. One of the problems with her original portrayal as a teenager (especially in ROCH, though she was better in her brief appearance at the beginning of HSDS) was that she was such a goody-two shoes Mary Sue (which was the opposite problem from her older sister, Gwok Fu, who seemed almost like a caricature; I didn't like the Gwok Fu and Gwok Seung characters because both were so polarized).

[Trien Chieu]

The end justifies the means. Miejue is ruthless but a good leader. She is not a nice nice person like Cheung Mo Gei, but whatever she does is for greater good of both her sect and her country. Gwok Seung should be proud of her. During that era, China needs leaders like her and Chu Yuan Cheung, not someone like Cheung Mo Gei.

[tape]

The end justifies the means. Miejue is ruthless but a good leader. She is not a nice nice person like Cheung Mo Gei, but whatever she does is for greater good of both her sect and her country. Gwok Seung should be proud of her. During that era, China needs leaders like her and Chu Yuan Cheung, not someone like Cheung Mo Gei.

Trien,

This post goes against everything you preach about in regards to Golden Wheel Monk. Zhu Yuan Zhang betrayed, lied, and killed everyone in order to get the throne. Miejue told her virgin student (which was a much bigger deal back in the day) to prostitute herself for the Dragon Sabre. Golden Wheel Monk kidnapping Guo Xiang doesn't seem very bad by contrast.

[Trien Chieu]

Trien,

This post goes against everything you preach about in regards to Golden Wheel Monk. Zhu Yuan Zhang betrayed, lied, and killed everyone in order to get the throne. Miejue told her virgin student (which was a much bigger deal back in the day) to prostitute herself for the Dragon Sabre. Golden Wheel Monk kidnapping Guo Xiang doesn't seem very bad by contrast.

Her countries is invaded by brutal foreigners so she has to do whatever she can to save her fellow citizens. On the other hand, Mongolia wasn't invaded by any foreigners during that era. There is no need for GWM to do anything to save his people from harm. All the Mongolians need to do is end the war and go back to their homeland and live in peace.

[Doc Kwok]

The end justifies the means. Miejue is ruthless but a good leader. She is not a nice nice person like Cheung Mo Gei, but whatever she does is for greater good of both her sect and her country. Gwok Seung should be proud of her. During that era, China needs leaders like her and Chu Yuan Cheung, not someone like Cheung Mo Gei.

Like most of wulin, she talked the talk but did not walk the walk. Throughout the novel, and from all we know of her history, she has not once done anything to advance the cause against the Yuan, save for a single sentence instructing her disciple to leave the Yue Fei war manual to a worthy patriot (which still amounts to doing nothing personally). Indeed, she has actively harmed the cause by fighting against the only ones who were actively doing something about it! All her time was spent indulging in personal feuds and advancing her little fiefdom at the expense of everyone else.

She was a dreadful leader. She was unjust, defending members of her own sect even when they were blatantly in the wrong. At the same time, she played favorites, blatantly favouring a select few disciples over others, keeping the advanced arts away from the male members, and was a reticent teacher (she was more open to Song Qingshu than her own disciples after he flattered her a bit!). Her grudge was against Yang Xiao and Xie Xun, which spilled over to include the entire Ming cult, and she sacrificed untold numbers of her own sect to indulge in that grudge, even in the face of a greater enemy.

She died because she refused to be in debt to Zhang Wuji - yet she was already in his debt, for saving the other members of her sect, and for giving her the antidote (albeit forcefully). To me, this indicates that her pride comes first, her sect second, and everyone else a distant third (if she even cared at all).

[jadebunny9]

Like most of wulin, she talked the talk but did not walk the walk. Throughout the novel, and from all we know of her history, she has not once done anything to advance the cause against the Yuan, save for a single sentence instructing her disciple to leave the Yue Fei war manual to a worthy patriot (which still amounts to doing nothing personally). Indeed, she has actively harmed the cause by fighting against the only ones who were actively doing something about it! All her time was spent indulging in personal feuds and advancing her little fiefdom at the expense of everyone else.

She was a dreadful leader. She was unjust, defending members of her own sect even when they were blatantly in the wrong. At the same time, she played favorites, blatantly favouring a select few disciples over others, keeping the advanced arts away from the male members, and was a reticent teacher (she was more open to Song Qingshu than her own disciples after he flattered her a bit!). Her grudge was against Yang Xiao and Xie Xun, which spilled over to include the entire Ming cult, and she sacrificed untold numbers of her own sect to indulge in that grudge, even in the face of a greater enemy.

She died because she refused to be in debt to Zhang Wuji - yet she was already in his debt, for saving the other members of her sect, and for giving her the antidote (albeit forcefully). To me, this indicates that her pride comes first, her sect second, and everyone else a distant third (if she even cared at all).

I don't think Guo Xiang would have approved of Miejue. Not every woman jilted in love becomes twisted and evil. While it's true she harbored feelings for Yang Guo that were never reciprocated, didn't Cheng Ying and Lu Wushuang also do the same? They never married either, but we don't say the same about them.

[pannonian]

Like most of wulin, she talked the talk but did not walk the walk. Throughout the novel, and from all we know of her history, she has not once done anything to advance the cause against the Yuan, save for a single sentence instructing her disciple to leave the Yue Fei war manual to a worthy patriot (which still amounts to doing nothing personally). Indeed, she has actively harmed the cause by fighting against the only ones who were actively doing something about it! All her time was spent indulging in personal feuds and advancing her little fiefdom at the expense of everyone else.

She was a dreadful leader. She was unjust, defending members of her own sect even when they were blatantly in the wrong. At the same time, she played favorites, blatantly favouring a select few disciples over others, keeping the advanced arts away from the male members, and was a reticent teacher (she was more open to Song Qingshu than her own disciples after he flattered her a bit!). Her grudge was against Yang Xiao and Xie Xun, which spilled over to include the entire Ming cult, and she sacrificed untold numbers of her own sect to indulge in that grudge, even in the face of a greater enemy.

She died because she refused to be in debt to Zhang Wuji - yet she was already in his debt, for saving the other members of her sect, and for giving her the antidote (albeit forcefully). To me, this indicates that her pride comes first, her sect second, and everyone else a distant third (if she even cared at all).

Yeah, but she's Chinese. That makes her immeasurably better than Zhao Min or even Xiao Zhao in TC's eyes.

[Ian Liew]

Yeah, but she's Chinese. That makes her immeasurably better than Zhao Min or even Xiao Zhao in TC's eyes.

I think the key is that she's a Chinese who hated and fought Mongolians!

[Doc Kwok]

I think the key is that she's a Chinese who hated and fought Mongolians!

Actually, she was one of the very few characters that has not been depicted fighting against a Mongolian, ever (not even no-name soldiers). Hey, maybe she was a Han traitor, and was actually a secret spy for the Mongolians sent to sabotage the Ming uprisings and sow discord amongst the Han!