Did Yau Chui Gei reach 1st Mt. Hua Tournament Greats level by ROCH?

[Ken Cheng]

Of the Cheun Jen 7 Disciples, Yau Chui Gei had the best martial arts. He was never a match for the Greats, but do you think that by the time of his last appearance in ROCH, his martial arts had reached the level of the Greats (not Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung, but the others) during the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament? That was a level that the Greats had attained some fifty years earlier.

[Tom]

Of the Cheun Jen 7 Disciples, Yau Chui Gei had the best martial arts. He was never a match for the Greats, but do you think that by the time of his last appearance in ROCH, his martial arts had reached the level of the Greats (not Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung, but the others) during the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament? That was a level that the Greats had attained some fifty years earlier.

Doubt it. Qiu Chuji was never that powerful.

Put it this way, do you think he could master arts like Xiang Long 18 Zhang, Divine Flicking Fingers, etc.?

The Greats of the 1st HuaShan meeting probably already mastered these arts.

[aniking_8]

But some fighter like LMC is better then the Greats of first Mts. Hua I think.

[Ken Cheng]

But some fighter like LMC is better then the Greats of first Mts. Hua I think.

If Lee Mok Sau really was, then so too would Yau Chui Gei be, because his martial arts were higher than hers throughout ROCH.

[PJ]

The Greats of the 1st HuaShan meeting probably already mastered these arts.

Not true.

LOCH chapter 12:
Previously, during the last Huashan Tournament with Wang Chongyang, Huang Yaoshi, and the rest, he [Hong Qigong] hadn't fully mastered this set of palms, yet Wang Chongyang and the others already praised this set of palms most highly. Later he (Hong Qigong) would often lament that if only he had finished learning this set of palms a few years earlier, the title of "Number One Pugilist in the World" might not have fallen to Quanzhen's leader, Wang Chongyang, but instead fallen to him.
translated by Ren Wo Xing

Also I think it was known that Qiu Qianren forfeited participation at Mount Hua because he hadn't fully mastered Iron Palm yet.

[aniking_8]

Yau Chui Gei wasn't able to defeat Guo Jing in middle of LOCH. Guo Jing is 1 of the Jinyong character that never get any special manual and seem pretty weak in LOCH and Yau Chui Gei is even weaker doesn't it mean Wong Chongyang is bad teacher like the taoist in SPW.

[Athena]

Not true.

LOCH chapter 12:
Previously, during the last Huashan Tournament with Wang Chongyang, Huang Yaoshi, and the rest, he [Hong Qigong] hadn't fully mastered this set of palms, yet Wang Chongyang and the others already praised this set of palms most highly. Later he (Hong Qigong) would often lament that if only he had finished learning this set of palms a few years earlier, the title of "Number One Pugilist in the World" might not have fallen to Quanzhen's leader, Wang Chongyang, but instead fallen to him.
translated by Ren Wo Xing

Also I think it was known that Qiu Qianren forfeited participation at Mount Hua because he hadn't fully mastered Iron Palm yet.

Removed in edition 3!

[PJ]

Removed in edition 3!

Good, because that was a major contradiction to this:

洪七公与欧阳锋都是一派宗主，武功在二十年前就均已登峰造极

二十年前 is when they had the First Huashan Tournament.

How can one have reached the peak of perfection if he doesn't even master his own art? This was a goof in edition 2, and Jin Yong deserves credit for fixing errors like this.

So now, we can assume that Hong Qigong DID master XL18Z at the time of the First Huashan Tournament.

[Ken Cheng]

Yau Chui Gei wasn't able to defeat Guo Jing in middle of LOCH. Guo Jing is 1 of the Jinyong character that never get any special manual and seem pretty weak in LOCH and Yau Chui Gei is even weaker.

Gwok Jing got the 9 Yum Jen Ging, which was a pretty special manual...so special that ALL the Greats coveted it.

Moreover, I don't think Gwok Jing pulled ahead of Yau Chui Gei until the former completed his training in the Hong Lung 18 Palms.

[aniking_8]

Yang Hong was actually stronger then Guo Jing before he master dragon 18 palms but yang hong weaker then his master yau chiu gei.

[Exodus]

no maybe he reached GJs level in the middle of LOCH. The guy got no talent whatsoever.

[pannonian]

Of the Cheun Jen 7 Disciples, Yau Chui Gei had the best martial arts. He was never a match for the Greats, but do you think that by the time of his last appearance in ROCH, his martial arts had reached the level of the Greats (not Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung, but the others) during the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament? That was a level that the Greats had attained some fifty years earlier.

Doubt it. He doesn't seem to have performed any impressive feats, nor does his martial arts seem to have showed any great insight, and during the set-to at Chongyang Palace, after the Mongolians had gone, Qiu Chuji freely admitted that Yang Guo was far above his (QCJ's) generation in ability. That fight with XLN would be the last time we see QCJ fighting, while YG's kidnapping of Sun Bu'er and the subsequent events would be the last we see of the Quanzhen masters in person.

[Ken Cheng]

Qiu Chuji freely admitted that Yang Guo was far above his (QCJ's) generation in ability.

That much is not a matter of dispute, but the Greats during the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, though already among the best of their time, were but shadows of the superlative martial artists they would later become during LOCH, let alone ROCH. I'm not entirely sure that the level of the young Greats during the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament a good decade or more before the beginning of LOCH is setting the bar too high for measuring the best of the second-generation Cheun Jen Sect disciples by mid-ROCH.

[Exodus]

Doubt it. He doesn't seem to have performed any impressive feats, nor does his martial arts seem to have showed any great insight, and during the set-to at Chongyang Palace, after the Mongolians had gone, Qiu Chuji freely admitted that Yang Guo was far above his (QCJ's) generation in ability. That fight with XLN would be the last time we see QCJ fighting, while YG's kidnapping of Sun Bu'er and the subsequent events would be the last we see of the Quanzhen masters in person.

duh even Yee Lut Tsai was better than him and he is nowhere near the level of YG

[pannonian]

That much is not a matter of dispute, but the Greats during the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, though already among the best of their time, were but shadows of the superlative martial artists they would later become during LOCH, let alone ROCH. I'm not entirely sure that the level of the young Greats during the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament a good decade or more before the beginning of LOCH is setting the bar too high for measuring the best of the second-generation Cheun Jen Sect disciples by mid-ROCH.

I think it all comes down to the Wang Chongyang duelling with them for a week issue again, as the only gauge we have of the Greats' ability at the time of the tournament. Something that might be considered though, is Wang Chuyi's account of how Hong Qigong discussed martial arts in culinary terms. Qiu Chuji and the other non-Greats don't seem to have ever displayed this kind of personalised understanding of martial art theory, although the same could be said of Qiu Qianren (but he gets a pass due to actual Jinyong descriptions of his ability).

Thinking about it, Qiu Qianren could be compared with Yelu Qi - mastery of his acquired skills, but no demonstration of great fighting instinct or creativity beyond that.

[PJ]

It's reasonable to believe that LOCH greats are 2x the power of Pre-20 years Pre-LOCH Greats, while the Post-16 years ROCH Greats are 2x the power of LOCH Greats (the doubling thing). So Post-16 years ROCH Greats are about 4x the power of Pre-20 years Pre-LOCH Greats. Roughly speaking of course, we can never be sure exactly how much they improved, but it's at least on the magnitude of 3 to 4 times.

Qiu Chuji was slightly weaker than Xiaoxiangzi, Yin Kexi, etc. 2.5 of those guys were helplessly trapped in Yang Guo's palm wind, so I think Yang Guo is at least 5 times better than those guys. Which means someone weaker like Qiu Chuji would need about 6x to 7x power to match Yang Guo.

So,

ROCH Greats =~ 4x Pre-LOCH Greats
ROCH Greats =~ 7x ROCH Qiu Chuji

So I think Qiu Chuji is still quite a bit behind Pre-20 years Pre-LOCH Greats./

[Dennis Chen]

I think it's pretty clear that Jin Yong wanted to elevate Wang Chong-yang's standing. Now if he'd only clarify the goings on at the 1st Hua Shan Tournament. Did it take 7 days because Wang Chong-yang wasn't that good? Or was it because Wang Chong-yang didn't want the other Greats to lose face?

Maybe even the Greats, after discussing martial arts theories with Wang Chong-yang and each other, were able to increase their martial arts by leaps and bounds after the 1st Hua Shan Tournament.

Plus, we know that the other 4 Greats lost, however, we don't know who was #2 (Yideng?), #3, #4 or #5.

[sarakoth]

Doubt it. Qiu Chuji was never that powerful.

Put it this way, do you think he could master arts like Xiang Long 18 Zhang, Divine Flicking Fingers, etc.?

The Greats of the 1st HuaShan meeting probably already mastered these arts.

If a young GJ with two years of QZ internal energy could, why couldn't QCJ?

By the way, my English teacher taught me that all literature is discussed in the present tense. Is this practice prevalent elsewhere?