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Thread: ZWJ, the real MAN of the Condor Trilogy

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by endo View Post
    Skill wise and internal energy cultivation wise...ZWJ at the end of HSDS should be on par with the GREATS at the end of ROCH....however, in fighting and battle experience, he will probably lose out to the GREATS.
    I don't know about that. ZWJ fought several lifetimes' worth of huge battles. He's been in more life and death situations during battle than any of them. Most of the greats from the previous generation lived in seclusion and rarely fought. Obviously GJ fought a lot but I'm guessing that most of the fights probably weren't against martial arts experts.

  2. #42
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor were warriors first and foremost, and they entered fights with the mentality, "Win, even if you need to kill somebody." Cheung Mo Gei was a diplomat by disposition, and he generally went into fights with the mindset, "Subdue without hurting anyone." That mindset is likely to lose Cheung a few fights he could otherwise win.

    It's telling that while Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor both had offense-oriented, first-strike martial arts systems in the Hong Lung 18 Palms and the Sad Palms, Cheung Mo Gei's martial arts were generally defense-oriented. Cheung really didn't have a martial art suitable for *initiating* an attack; his martial arts were all reactive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor were warriors first and foremost, and they entered fights with the mentality, "Win, even if you need to kill somebody." Cheung Mo Gei was a diplomat by disposition, and he generally went into fights with the mindset, "Subdue without hurting anyone." That mindset is likely to lose Cheung a few fights he could otherwise win.
    That's mostly true but keep in mind that GJ also had a merciful nature. Several times GJ probably could have killed the Western Poison but he didn't try to pursue revenge against someone who was already living such a pitiful existence.

    Also, karma counts for a lot in JY's world. In JY's world, ZWJ's mercy would probably gain him much more than he would lose. Out of all JY's heroes, ZWJ embelishes most the magnanimous Da Xia spirit that is idealized in his novels. I think JY said something to that effect before but I can't remember what exactly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    It's telling that while Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor both had offense-oriented, first-strike martial arts systems in the Hong Lung 18 Palms and the Sad Palms, Cheung Mo Gei's martial arts were generally defense-oriented. Cheung really didn't have a martial art suitable for *initiating* an attack; his martial arts were all reactive.
    ZWJ had plenty of offensive moves. He just didn't choose to use them. The Seven Maim Fist, for example, is an extremely agressive martial art.

  4. #44
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post

    Out of all JY's heroes, ZWJ embelishes most the magnanimous Da Xia spirit that is idealized in his novels.
    That's true and something I've long believed, but it's weird how most wuxia fans overlook all that because they get all hung up on the idea that Cheung Mo Gei had four girlfriends!

    To alot of people, it seemingly doesn't matter how much good Cheung Mo Gei accomplishes because they focus on his mismanagement of his love life (personally, I could care less).


    ZWJ had plenty of offensive moves. He just didn't choose to use them. The Seven Maim Fist, for example, is an extremely agressive martial art.
    Tse Tsun taught him the verbal formula for this skill, but did Cheung Mo Gei actually train in it?

  5. #45
    Senior Member AnhHung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Tse Tsun taught him the verbal formula for this skill, but did Cheung Mo Gei actually train in it?
    ZWJ was an expert in 7 Hurt Fist. He performed a strike to a tree at Ming peak that blew the minds of the 5 Elders. They were no were near his level in 7 Hurt Fist.

    We seldom count 7 Hurt Fist or Dragon claws when listing ZWJ' martial arts. Thats because he doesnt consider these arts as his to use. 7 Hurt Fist was stolen by his god father, so it doesnt really belong to him. He was also an expert with Dragon claws, but he is not a shaolin student, so using this is wrong.

    So Ken is right, ZWJ only have defensive skills. But they really fits his personallity.
    You do know that it is just fiction, dont you?

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnhHung View Post
    ZWJ was an expert in 7 Hurt Fist. He performed a strike to a tree at Ming peak that blew the minds of the 5 Elders. They were no were near his level in 7 Hurt Fist.

    We seldom count 7 Hurt Fist or Dragon claws when listing ZWJ' martial arts. Thats because he doesnt consider these arts as his to use. 7 Hurt Fist was stolen by his god father, so it doesnt really belong to him. He was also an expert with Dragon claws, but he is not a shaolin student, so using this is wrong.

    So Ken is right, ZWJ only have defensive skills. But they really fits his personallity.
    But in that situation, ZWJ actually used his 9Yang to blast the tree so to impress the crowd. However i think ZWJ does know 7 Injury Fist and should be quite good at it but seriously the Elders were really, not very good.

    Thing with Dragon Claw is that he actually pretty much just copied with the Shaolin Kong was doing and I don't think ZWJ actually knows the actual manual and its philosophies. He might have observed some of it during the fight though.

  7. #47
    Senior Member AnhHung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    But in that situation, ZWJ actually used his 9Yang to blast the tree so to impress the crowd. However i think ZWJ does know 7 Injury Fist and should be quite good at it but seriously the Elders were really, not very good.

    Thing with Dragon Claw is that he actually pretty much just copied with the Shaolin Kong was doing and I don't think ZWJ actually knows the actual manual and its philosophies. He might have observed some of it during the fight though.
    I disagree.

    Yes, ZWJ use 9 yang to blast the tree, but it was just to show the inside of the trunk. 7 Hurt Fist is unique because it causes damage inside the trunk and not outside. XX used dragon sabre the same way to demonstrate to ZCS. At first, the 5 KD elders were impressed with 9 yang , but said that this is not 7 Hurt Fist. Then ZWJ told them to look inside the trunk. It was then that they were amazed.

    Regarding Dragon claws. Yes, he copied, but to an extent that even the monk couldnt match. This art is an external art, so after looking at all 36 stances, ZWJ had memorized them all and could execute them freely. The monk was amazed at the level ZWJ dispayed, thinking that ZWJ must have trained intensivly for a decade. The monk was undefeated with his Dragon claws. Never had he nedeed to use more than 13 stances, and by then he won easily. So for ZWJ to beat him with Dragon claws, he must be an expert.
    You do know that it is just fiction, dont you?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnhHung View Post
    I disagree.

    Yes, ZWJ use 9 yang to blast the tree, but it was just to show the inside of the trunk. 7 Hurt Fist is unique because it causes damage inside the trunk and not outside. XX used dragon sabre the same way to demonstrate to ZCS. At first, the 5 KD elders were impressed with 9 yang , but said that this is not 7 Hurt Fist. Then ZWJ told them to look inside the trunk. It was then that they were amazed.

    Regarding Dragon claws. Yes, he copied, but to an extent that even the monk couldnt match. This art is an external art, so after looking at all 36 stances, ZWJ had memorized them all and could execute them freely. The monk was amazed at the level ZWJ dispayed, thinking that ZWJ must have trained intensivly for a decade. The monk was undefeated with his Dragon claws. Never had he nedeed to use more than 13 stances, and by then he won easily. So for ZWJ to beat him with Dragon claws, he must be an expert.
    Firstly about the dragon claws. i don't agree that just because its an external skill, just by copying well makes you an expert at it. For example, DG9J is purely external skill too, will copying it make you a pro at it? XL18Z is also considered external skill (backed up with your abundant internal), will copying it make you a pro? Many top kung fu are actually externals but backed by internal, just like Dragon Claws. If a person can be considered an expert just by copying a practitioner well, imagine LOCH, the four Greats would have already copied each other's arts, seeing they have exchanged thousands of stances and they are no stupider than ZWJ. And since East Heretic does not know XL18Z and West Posion does not know 1 Yang Finger, i would think its true. There is actually things much deeper in these top skills, which you can only get from manuals or pointers by accomplished people.

    Thing with ZWJ's 7 Injury Fist, my first part of my post explains my view that ZWJ actually got pointers from Xie Xun. And i still stick to my view that, ZWJ is quite accomplished with 7 Injury.


  9. #49
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    There is only one person in wuxia who may be properly called "REAL MAN"!
    Reverend Rongku prepared himself.

    Suddenly, he toss his hands and screamed: "I am not human! I am an animal!"

    The crowd startled at such a bizarre beginning to the story.

  10. #50
    Senior Member AnhHung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    Firstly about the dragon claws. i don't agree that just because its an external skill, just by copying well makes you an expert at it. For example, DG9J is purely external skill too, will copying it make you a pro at it? XL18Z is also considered external skill (backed up with your abundant internal), will copying it make you a pro? Many top kung fu are actually externals but backed by internal, just like Dragon Claws. If a person can be considered an expert just by copying a practitioner well, imagine LOCH, the four Greats would have already copied each other's arts, seeing they have exchanged thousands of stances and they are no stupider than ZWJ. And since East Heretic does not know XL18Z and West Posion does not know 1 Yang Finger, i would think its true. There is actually things much deeper in these top skills, which you can only get from manuals or pointers by accomplished people.

    Thing with ZWJ's 7 Injury Fist, my first part of my post explains my view that ZWJ actually got pointers from Xie Xun. And i still stick to my view that, ZWJ is quite accomplished with 7 Injury.

    The monk, who is an expert in Dragon claws admitted that ZWJ was far more better than him in executing Dragon claws. He even asked ZWJ for pointers!! In my book, thats make him an expert. QKDNY enables ZWJ to memorize skills just by watching. But more importantly, it enables him to see flaws in the skills and in the execution of the skill.So yes, he is an expert in Dragon claws. And prob in a bunch of other skills as well, but he choose not to use them. The Greats didnt have QKDNY.
    You do know that it is just fiction, dont you?

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnhHung View Post
    The monk, who is an expert in Dragon claws admitted that ZWJ was far more better than him in executing Dragon claws. He even asked ZWJ for pointers!! In my book, thats make him an expert. QKDNY enables ZWJ to memorize skills just by watching. But more importantly, it enables him to see flaws in the skills and in the execution of the skill.So yes, he is an expert in Dragon claws. And prob in a bunch of other skills as well, but he choose not to use them. The Greats didnt have QKDNY.
    QKDNY would allow ZWJ to copy exactly what the other person might be doing, he can also then consciously improve on the movements which he perceive as inadequate by the original guy. This is similar to Jiu Mozhi in DGSD, as he used Xiao Wu Xiang Gong to power the Shaolin 72 Arts.

    那老僧继续
    道:小无相功精微渊深,以此为根基,本寺的七十二绝技,倒也皆可运使,只不过细微曲
    折之处,不免有点似是而非罢了。

    Jiu Mo Zhi's NieHua Zhi was described to be a lot better than the
    head of DaMo Hall, who was the best at NieHua Zhi, but in fact he
    only used Xiao Wi Xiang Gong to power the skill, and he does not
    actually understand the inner workings of a skill.

    Another example is ZWJ first learning TaiJi, he heard the techniques
    from Zhang SanFeng himself and i perceive this as good (if not better)
    than viewing a manual. Despite this, he still needed Z3F's pointers
    during the fight VS Ah San and Ah Er. Z3F needed to teach ZWJ the inner
    workings of Taiji.
    张无忌自听张三丰演说太极拳之后,一个多时辰中,始终在默想这套拳术的拳理,
    眼见阿三左拳击到,当即使出太极拳中一招揽雀尾,右脚实,左脚虚,运起挤字
    诀,粘连粘随,右掌已搭住他左腕,横劲发出。阿三身不由主的向前一冲,跨出两步,方始
    站定。旁观众人见此情景,齐声惊噫。这一招揽雀尾,乃天地间自有太极拳以来首次和
    人过招动手。张无忌身具九阳神功,精擅乾坤大挪移之术,突然使出太极拳中的粘法,
    虽然所学还不到两个时辰,却已如毕生研习一般。

    ZWJ heard Taiji from Zhang SanFeng himself and yet he spent 2Hours+
    to try to understand it, and he still needed pointers in the end.
    Note that he also had QKDNY at this point.
    Do you seriously think ZWJ can fully master a skill (Dragon Claw)
    in that short amount of time that he fought? He only copied and
    improved on what he thought was not perfect in the opponent's attacks.

  12. #52
    Senior Member AnhHung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    Do you seriously think ZWJ can fully master a skill (Dragon Claw)
    in that short amount of time that he fought? He only copied and
    improved on what he thought was not perfect in the opponent's attacks.
    Well, the monk was considered as a top expert in Dragon Claw. And since ZWJ not only knew the skill, but also execute better in a fight. So yes I consider him an expert. The thing with JMZ is that it was stated that he did not knew the skills properly. JY stated that, although people in the novel did not know. With ZWJ, JY did not mention anything about him *cheating* with the skill.Taji was totally different than any other ma, and more sofisticated than Dragon Claws. So its not strange that he had to need a few pointers.
    You do know that it is just fiction, dont you?

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnhHung View Post
    Well, the monk was considered as a top expert in Dragon Claw. And since ZWJ not only knew the skill, but also execute better in a fight. So yes I consider him an expert. The thing with JMZ is that it was stated that he did not knew the skills properly. JY stated that, although people in the novel did not know. With ZWJ, JY did not mention anything about him *cheating* with the skill.Taji was totally different than any other ma, and more sofisticated than Dragon Claws. So its not strange that he had to need a few pointers.

    JMZ was only stated not having performed properly while speaking to the Sweeper Monk. The time he actually fought with Shaolin Arts:

    鸠摩智又连使十六门少林绝技,少林群僧只看得目
    眩神驰,均想:此人自称一身兼通本派七十二绝技,果非大言虚语。
    拳不着鼎而铜鼎发
    声,还不算如何艰难,这一拳明明是向前击出,铜鼎却向上跳,可见拳力之巧,实已深得
    大金刚拳的秘要。

    虚竹觉得奇怪的是,此事(JMZ using Xiao Wu Xiang Gong)明显已极,少林寺自方丈
    以下,千余僧众竟无一人直斥其非。

    久慕玄渡大师的拈花指绝技练得出神入化,今日得
    见,幸何如之。说着右手食中两指也是轻轻搭住,作拈花之状。二僧左手同时缓缓伸起,
    向着对方弹了三弹。只听得波波波三响,指力相撞。玄渡大师身子一晃,突然间胸口射出三
    支血箭,激喷数尺,两股指力较量之下,玄渡不敌,给鸠摩智三股指力都中在胸口,便如是
    利刃所伤一般。

    Xuan Du was said to be a pro at Nie Hua Finger but he still got
    very much smashed by JMZ. The best thing is that no one, including
    the abbot and various Heads, saw through JMZ's trick. All except for
    Xu Zhu, who knows Xiao Wu Xiang Gong himself.

    In the context of ZWJ, no one knows QKDNY (to his level) so its
    natural that no one could spot the difference.

    As JMZ could perform the 72 Arts so well that he defeats the best
    monks possessing those Arts and none can spot the difference, would
    you consider him to be an expert of 72 Arts? Obviously not, as the God King
    Sweeper Monk tells us:不免有点似是而非罢了.

  14. #54
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    Another evidence :

    虚竹道:“太师伯,他使的不是拈花指,也不是佛门武功。”群僧一听,都暗暗不以
    为然,鸠摩智的指法固然和玄渡一模一样,连两人温颜微笑的神情也是毫无二致,却不是少
    林七十二绝技之一的“拈花指”是什么?

    已抓住虚竹
    拳头,正是少林绝技“龙爪功” (Thus Dragon Claws is actually one of Shaolin Arts)
    and
    这七十二项绝技每一项都是艰深繁复之极

    thus seriously, there is no way ZWJ can fully MASTER one of the Shaolin Arts in that short frame of time, especially without manuals or pointers from pros. Lets face it, he just copied, very well.

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