A classic fun discussion: identify the Five Grand Divine Arts

[PJ]

Yeah yeah but if I put before you the Yi Jin Jing, the Xi Sui Jing, Xiao Wu Xiang Gong, Ba Hwang Shen Gong, Xian Tian Gong, Jiu Yin Zhen Jing _and_ DIB, allowing you to choose ONE. You gonna take DIB?

Yijinjing - Your chance of learning this skill is very slim, since you have to have the mindset of not wanting to learn it in order to learn it.

Xisuijing - I don't know anything about it

Xiao Wuxiang Gong - I would pick this over DIB

Everywhere I Reign Supremely - The age-reversing thing is a bit freaky. I would pick DIB over this.

Pre-Heaven Art - I don't like the notion of blending your congenital energy with your acquired energy; in this way if you lose your acquired energy, then you're basically a goner. So I would pick DIB over this.

9 Yin - I would pick this over DIB



CC: Please understand, I am asking fans to speculate what could be the Five Grand Divine Arts as mentioned in HSDS, based on the criteria most likely to fit that list. I am not asking fans to nominate the top 5 greatest arts of all time. That would be a different story. We know that what is technically superior doesn't always get recognized, in real life as well as wuxia. The criteria for the 5 grand arts take into consideration sustainability, prominence, and the type of art.

Think of why Zhang Sanfeng, not the Sweeper Monk, is considered the best martial artist. Sweeper Monk may have better martial arts, but Zhang Sanfeng is a more prominent figure, more sustainable (left a huge legacy), and more resemblant of an "artist".

[Wu Wudi]

I've always thought that Sweeper Monk was a living Buddha or some Buddha's human avatar. If so, it makes sense why JY doesn't count him or Damo when talking about normal humans.

[Felix]

-Yijinjing
-Dragon Palms

Those are for sure, don't know about the rest.

[CC]

Yijinjing - Your chance of learning this skill is very slim, since you have to have the mindset of not wanting to learn it in order to learn it.

Xisuijing - I don't know anything about it".

Well, somewhere between DGSD and SOD, it became learnable. And its still a #1 internal art in SOD so lets assume its learnable.

Xiao Wuxiang Gong - I would pick this over DIB

Everywhere I Reign Supremely - The age-reversing thing is a bit freaky. I would pick DIB over this.".

The age reversal isn't a feature. Its due to the fire-deviation TSTL suffered.

Pre-Heaven Art - I don't like the notion of blending your congenital energy with your acquired energy; in this way if you lose your acquired energy, then you're basically a goner. So I would pick DIB over this...

Hmm, that part in itself is speculative and along that line, we also speculated that all Xiao Yao Arts (including the XWXG you just picked) have this 'feature'.

CC: Please understand, I am asking fans to speculate what could be the Five Grand Divine Arts as mentioned in HSDS, based on the criteria most likely to fit that list. I am not asking fans to nominate the top 5 greatest arts of all time. That would be a different story. We know that what is technically superior doesn't always get recognized, in real life as well as wuxia. The criteria for the 5 grand arts take into consideration sustainability, prominence, and the type of art.
.

It would be easier if it was the 5 Grand Shaolin/Buddhist Divine Arts. I suppose, if you used the DGSD narrations, these dang things were supposed to have 'limitless potential' so technically even Prana Palm could beat 18 Dragon Palms and 9 Yang in the right hands.

[PJ]

OK, if we assume that all Xiaoyao Pai arts merge congenital and acquired energies, then I will retract my vote for Xiao Wuxiang Gong

I must say that Ren Wo Xing (the poster) did us a favor by pointing out the nice attributes about DIB. I'd forgotten that DIB indeed does have the same auto-protect feature that Xuzhu and Zhang Wuji have, and when Xie Xun tried to sneak attack Reverend Kongjian, Kongjian's heart/mind initiated the intent to be protected, which activated the DIB, which knocked Xie Xun back several steps. Only when Xie Xun faked a suicide was it cunning enough to catch the good reverend off guard. But I'm willing to bet that if you take the same scenario and apply it to Zhang Wuji, Shi Potian and Xuzhu, they wouldn't be able to activate their so-called "Auto" protect either.

-If Xiao Feng faked a death, and Xuzhu rushed over to rescue, then Xiao Feng struck with maximum strength, I really doubt Xuzhu's auto-protect would be able to save him.
(recall that even the almighty Sweeper Monk had trouble taking half of Xiao Feng's maximum force while devoting his strength to attacking Xiao Yuanshan)

-If Yin Tianzheng faked a death, and Zhang Wuji rushed over to rescue, letting all of his guard down, then Yin struck with maximum force, I think Zhang Wuji would suffer quite the consequence as well.

That's why I think DIB is really quite good.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Not to mention, Xie Xun wasn't even 'faking'; he put all his power into that blow, so if the Reverend didn't come to kill him, he would've died. He was in great despair due to being so badly outclassed that he felt that if he couldn't kill Cheng Kun, he wouldn't want to live, either. So this was pretty much a scenario that would've fooled anyone who had a benevolent heart, no matter how intelligent, because Xie Xun would've gone through with it.

[PJ]

To be labelled as a Grand Divine art, I think the martial arts must be a highly prestigious and orthodox art, does not require weapons (bare hands) and, not easily practiced by normal pugilists. (just my wild guess though)

I'm not sure about the weaponless part. Because in HSDS chapter 33, the Yellow-dressed Lady referred to the Dog-Beating Stick as a divine art (shen gong).

[Extremer88]

I think its all bullcrap.

Looking at the weakness of DIB (have to regulate breath, maybe even stand still for it to work) and that 9 Yang practised to a high level can probably do the same thing without the same drawbacks, I think its bullcrap about the 5 divine arts.

I think DIB is an underrated martial arts. OK, it may not look cool like LMSJ, BMSG, etc. but that does not take away the quality of this art.

DIB is a primarily defense art. Kongjian is probably either a above average / good practitioner of this DIB martial arts. Sweeper Monk may have also learned this DIB thing, although the novel didn't point this out. I think Kongjian practising DIB is something like the equivalent of Shi Huolong practising XL18Z. The way Shi Huolong utilise XL18Z (losing to Cheng Kun), doesn't mean that XL18Z is weak. The same can be applied to the Kongjian case. There might be better DIB practitioners before Kongjian - which I suspect SM is one of them.

If DIB was so good, how come MRB and XYS never bothered with searching for it?

I think that DIB, being a Buddhist martial arts, requires some form of Buddhism understanding, deep cultivation and/or certain level of benevolence. Clearly, people like XYS and MRB with vengeance on their minds doesn't have the right frame of mind to practice this. Even if they found this art, they would have ditch it, its quite clear that they wanted to learn some powerful, awesome, attacking martial arts instead of just sitting now there, regulating breath and DEFEND!.

Of course, this could just be a load of bullcrap speculation from me.

[Extremer88]

I'm not sure about the weaponless part. Because in HSDS chapter 33, the Yellow-dressed Lady referred to the Dog-Beating Stick as a divine art (shen gong).

I think Dog-Beating Stick and XL18Z are often referred to as the two divine martial arts of the Beggars' Clan. It's actually kind of hard to envision Beggars' Clan martial arts garnering two spots on the Five Grand Divine Arts.

I think Beggars' Clan being the most consistent martial arts association/clan/sect apart from Shaolin, and given its prestigious place in the Wulin fraternity, its understandable that Beggars' Clan is given a spot on the Five Grand Divine Arts.

[flamer]

OK, if we assume that all Xiaoyao Pai arts merge congenital and acquired energies, then I will retract my vote for Xiao Wuxiang Gong

I must say that Ren Wo Xing (the poster) did us a favor by pointing out the nice attributes about DIB. I'd forgotten that DIB indeed does have the same auto-protect feature that Xuzhu and Zhang Wuji have, and when Xie Xun tried to sneak attack Reverend Kongjian, Kongjian's heart/mind initiated the intent to be protected, which activated the DIB, which knocked Xie Xun back several steps. Only when Xie Xun faked a suicide was it cunning enough to catch the good reverend off guard. But I'm willing to bet that if you take the same scenario and apply it to Zhang Wuji, Shi Potian and Xuzhu, they wouldn't be able to activate their so-called "Auto" protect either.

-If Xiao Feng faked a death, and Xuzhu rushed over to rescue, then Xiao Feng struck with maximum strength, I really doubt Xuzhu's auto-protect would be able to save him.
(recall that even the almighty Sweeper Monk had trouble taking half of Xiao Feng's maximum force while devoting his strength to attacking Xiao Yuanshan)

-If Yin Tianzheng faked a death, and Zhang Wuji rushed over to rescue, letting all of his guard down, then Yin struck with maximum force, I think Zhang Wuji would suffer quite the consequence as well.

That's why I think DIB is really quite good.

Thats not true, Xiao Feng landed one palm, doesnt mean he only landed 50% of his max power. When ZWJ was fighting ZZR, he used one hand but it was said he used his 100% strength in that palm as he was wary of ZZR. Thus using one hand doesnt not mean ZWJ/XF used 50% of his max power.

Yin Tianzheng scenario, im sure ZWJ wouldnt leave unharmed, but it would most likely be just an external wound and no serious internal damage (if any which cannot be recuperated in a day).

[PJ]

Thats not true, Xiao Feng landed one palm, doesnt mean he only landed 50% of his max power. When ZWJ was fighting ZZR, he used one hand but it was said he used his 100% strength in that palm as he was wary of ZZR. Thus using one hand doesnt not mean ZWJ/XF used 50% of his max power.

不料那老僧右掌这一招中途变向，纯真虚招，只是要引开萧峰双掌中的一掌之力

I agree it may not have been reduced to 50%, but I do think it was reduced.

Yin Tianzheng scenario, im sure ZWJ wouldnt leave unharmed, but it would most likely be just an external wound and no serious internal damage (if any which cannot be recuperated in a day).

I think Zhang Wuji would suffer some internal damage. But he is younger than Kongjian, so he wouldn't die.

[flamer]

不料那老僧右掌这一招中途变向，纯真虚招，只是要引开萧峰双掌中的一掌之力

I agree it may not have been reduced to 50%, but I do think it was reduced.



I think Zhang Wuji would suffer some internal damage. But he is younger than Kongjian, so he wouldn't die.

Yea i find the percentage thing very interesting cuz ZWJ was said to use 100% with extra ferocity with one palm.
他初时左掌拍出，知道周芷若武功与自己已相差不远，大是强敌，丝毫不敢怠忽，加之
单掌迎双掌，这一掌乃是出了十成力，劲力刚向外吐，便即察觉对方力尽，急忙硬生生的收
回，他明知这是犯了武学的大忌，等于以十成掌力回击自身，何况在这间不容发之际突然回
收，用力更是奇猛[FONT=verdana,geneva,lucida,'lucida grande',arial,helvetica,sans-serif]

So its saying he actually used 100%. I wonder what would happen if he used two palms then? Would he have
doubled his power? Does that mean if one uses two palms he doubles his power? Or one palm uses only 50% of
his total power? Interesting

ZWJ took XuanMing Elder's strikes and he recovered in a day, i doubt Yin TinZheng can do much internal damage
to ZWJ.
[/FONT]

[PJ]

Yea i find the percentage thing very interesting cuz ZWJ was said to use 100% with extra ferocity with one palm.
他初时左掌拍出，知道周芷若武功与自己已相差不远，大是强敌，丝毫不敢怠忽，加之
单掌迎双掌，这一掌乃是出了十成力，劲力刚向外吐，便即察觉对方力尽，急忙硬生生的收
回，他明知这是犯了武学的大忌，等于以十成掌力回击自身，何况在这间不容发之际突然回
收，用力更是奇猛[FONT=verdana,geneva,lucida,'lucida grande',arial,helvetica,sans-serif]

So its saying he actually used 100%. I wonder what would happen if he used two palms then? Would he have
doubled his power? Does that mean if one uses two palms he doubles his power? Or one palm uses only 50% of
his total power? Interesting

You can utilize 100% of your power with either one or both palms.
In Zhang Wuji's case, he used one palm.
In Xiao Feng's case, he started out using both palms,
but Sweeper Monk diverted one of his palms to elsewhere,
making the final result less than 100% of Xiao Feng's power.

ZWJ took XuanMing Elder's strikes and he recovered in a day, i doubt Yin TinZheng can do much internal damage
to ZWJ.
[/FONT]

The attack landed on him AFTER he had actived 9 Yang. I don't think he can activate 9 Yang if it were an intended suicide--Xie Xun style.

[flamer]

You can utilize 100% of your power with either one or both palms.
In Zhang Wuji's case, he used one palm.
In Xiao Feng's case, he started out using both palms,
but Sweeper Monk diverted one of his palms to elsewhere,
making the final result less than 100% of Xiao Feng's power.



The attack landed on him AFTER he had actived 9 Yang. I don't think he can activate 9 Yang if it were an intended suicide--Xie Xun style.

Hmm if that is the case what is the point of a person using two hands? Giving the opponent a chance to divert one hand away, as each hand only has half the power, making it easier to divert or block.
EDIT: and at the same time making yourself more vulnerable as both hands are engaged.

[PJ]

Hmm if that is the case what is the point of a person using two hands? Giving the opponent a chance to divert one hand away, as each hand only has half the power, making it easier to divert or block.
EDIT: and at the same time making yourself more vulnerable as both hands are engaged.

Some skills require 2 hands to execute their maximum power.

In Jiumozhi vs Xuzhu, it was said that Jiumozhi could only execute about 50% of his power because one of his hands was unavailable.

[flamer]

Some skills require 2 hands to execute their maximum power.

In Jiumozhi vs Xuzhu, it was said that Jiumozhi could only execute about 50% of his power because one of his hands was unavailable.

Lol then are you saying XL18Z requires two palms to execute?

[PJ]

Lol then are you saying XL18Z requires two palms to execute?

Possibly. We've seen Xiao Feng use both palms before.
It doesn't need to require 2 hands, but it could be optimum with 2 hands.

[flamer]

Possibly. We've seen Xiao Feng use both palms before.
It doesn't need to require 2 hands, but it could be optimum with 2 hands.

Yup my point is that if a skill does not REQUIRE both hands to use, i dont see a good reason why someone would, seeing they occupy both hands and force is separated in two hands, making it easier to block or divert. XF clearly had the choice between using two hands or one hand with his XL18Z but he chose two hands, which must've been the stronger option in that situation, thats why i wonder if using two hands multiplies the force or something...

[Wu Wudi]

Do not mock the MIGHTY DRAGON ELEPHANT PRANA!

It is the penultimate skill for elite artists to learn (after Bei Ming Shen Gong).

It only takes 1 day to master the 1st level and it can DOUBLE your power.

Hong Qigong would have lamented that if only he was taught his skill 1 day before the 1st Mt. Hua competition, he would have dominated Wang Chongyang!

Yes, but it also has the plot device power of doubling every other great which makes it basically useless.

[PJ]

Yes, but it also has the plot device power of doubling every other great which makes it basically useless.

Not useless at all.

In fact, it gave Golden Wheel Monk an edge over the old Greats, whether you like it or not.

The old Greats didn't double; they were close to doubling, but not quite yet. On the other hand, Golden Wheel Monk definitely doubled. There's no question about that. Jin Yong said so, twice. Even if Dugu Qiubai could return from the tomb, he would also say the same.