Romance of the Three Kingdoms

[shen diao xia]

Because this was not the reason why people love wuxia.

They love it for GJ and XF's powerful 18 Dragon Palms. They love it for the cool Top Five....

Totally agree with you, though toning it down a level will help greatly in a wuxia forum.

Guo Jing the character taught me a few things:

- The price for seeking revenge is huge.
- The world is lots of shades of grey and not black & white, but take a stance and believe in it.
- If you're stupid enough to get married, find a woman who can cook (which basically excludes most modern women).

ROCH taught me:

- Don't be a whiny pu$$y like Yang Guo when he was young.
- Do not waste your youth for a melodramatic socially retarded starfish....

I doubt you learn these things first hand from wuxia novels. At best, they just serve as examples to reassure you of the same learnings gotten elsewhere. My point is, as the rest have said, the main reason for wuxia reading is still entertainment, escapism, being able to pretend for a little while...etc.

For me, beautifully written lines are just fluff.

Yes, they may be. But it is essential in helping to sell the story, maintain reader interest and so on. It's just like dressing up for an interview. Do you only see it as fluff, knowing that you have what it takes for the job, thus rendering it unnecessary?

[mich]

I used to be a JY-fanatic myself, but when I FINALLY started growing up I realized wuxia fanaticism is one of the main factors that prevented me from WANTING to grow up. A very painful face to face with reality. Took me quite a while.

What does one "learn" from Mr. JY's wuxia?

Don't tell me reading LOCH's Guo Jing makes one want to get drafted into the Armed forces to protect the country. Don't tell me reading DGSD teaches one how to forgive and move on - poor Xiao Feng went around trying to find out the main culprit, while his old pa went around killing every suspect/liaison and placing the blame on Xiao Feng without blinking. In the end Murong Bo is the bad guy, but lol, he and old pa reconciled and became nice monks and Xiao Feng went to Liao. END of story. All the casualties in the process were forgotten. No apologies to their friends and families. No recognition that they have been wronged (Oops I made a mistake killing you, my bad!). Not a word about them anymore. As if their sole purpose was to stir up this "tragedy" to make Xiao Feng a "tragic hero". In the end XF killed himself. Why? For the country? No, because he cannot live on. He carried his tragedy to the underworld. What does one learn from this melodrama?? Forgiveness and resolution?!

Oh and PLEASE, don't tell me reading ROCH teaches one how to love. The twisted kind of love between Yang Guo and XLN filled them with destructive self-centredness, selfishness and anger. They only see each other, the rest of the world doesn't matter - actually it does matter. They spit on people's treasured tradition in their face and force them to approve of their defiance. Is that necessary? Why don't they just go back to their Gu Mu or somewhere quiet? Nobody wants or needs them fooling around anyway. YG says they don't care what others think, then why did he go nuts when they don't give approval? Isn't that a bit of a dilemma? YG has no qualms setting out to kill Guo Jing (whom he knows loves him as a son) for XLN (what a lover). XLN doesn't shudder at the thought - as long as beloved Guo'r is safe, the whole world can perish (how cold and sexy). In the end it was not their "love" that prevented YG from the killing. It was GY's role model of sacrificing for the country. But then again even our good GJ failed to influence the readers that way.

Because this was not the reason why people love wuxia.

They love it for GJ and XF's powerful 18 Dragon Palms. They love it for the cool Top Five. They love it for GJ and YG's (and most of the other main protagonists) lucky chances piling one over another that pushed them to become Grand Masters of martial arts. They love it for XLN's extreme beauty and sexy "coldness". They love it for the many rare beauties who all fall for the same protagonist, some dying for him like flies while others wasting their whole lives yearning for him alone.

Oh yeah, that is what we love wuxia for. It is a fun and comfortable world, filled with lust, passion and danger that never spill into our monotonous lives. We are lazy; we just want to get through school/work. Change the world? Influence people? Help the need? Nah, we learn to escape into wuxia, where the nameless serve to die like flies or yell out our heroes names. But no, don't say we are cowards, because we like Dai Hups and chat about them in air-conditioned rooms. That's all we needed to buff our Dai Hup ego.

It's all for the fun to read those novels. Hahahaha.

It's all very entertaining, if not Mr Cha won't make buckets of gold from all these novels.

[Candide]

I don't care what are other people's reasons for liking wuxia. I responded to a post to refute what the poster thinks the lessons that can be learned from wuxia are.

I did learn those things from wuxia first, then they were reinforced elsewhere. As a kid, I always thought that Yang Guo was a whiny biatch and XLN was a drama queen & boring. That Guo Jing was the man and Huang Rong was a great wife. If you notice, I did read ROTK and Shui Hu when I was very young, and the influence from those novels shaped my view of wuxia. Putting those things into words took me years and learning from elsewhere, but the ideas have always been there.

Your interview analogy is wrong. The dressing up bit of the interviewee is the equivalent of the writer polishing his lines. How it's viewed by the interviewer / employer is the equivalent of the readers'. If I interview someone for a job, sure enough I want that person to dress smart-ish and not as a bum, but it's just a small threshold to get over. Going over the top wouldn't get him/her anywhere with me.

[Han Solo]

JY as a writer didn't have too much to recommend upon, in a strictly literacy sense of things.

The plots are good, robust but not "wow"- knock your socks off.

The character developments are not refined, adequate, but never glows.

What he excels was the incorporation of wuxia themes into his novels.

But DGSD was a great piece of work, it has passion, it has tragedy, it has comedy, and the character development was better than most of his works.

GL on the other hand, that guy can really write. inventive, off-beat, good dialogue, good plot twists. Bad character development though. If only if he never drinks, but then again, one wonders how much drinking contributes to his works in a positive way.

Han Solo

[Vic_Viper]

GL on the other hand, that guy can really write. inventive, off-beat, good dialogue, good plot twists. Bad character development though. If only if he never drinks, but then again, one wonders how much drinking contributes to his works in a positive way.

Han Solo

Gulong never drink whenever he was writing. Personally I think his character development is better than other writers I have read. Or maybe his characters are so well developED since the begining of the story that u don't see any develop"ment" at the later of the story.

btw we are o/t

[expression]

Candide, I congratulate you on your viewing Wuxia and its "lessons" in a light-hearted manner, if I read between your lines correctly, as it should be. Looks like you have outgrown wuxia and are placing it where it ought to be - entertainment and escapism.

My concern is that many other people are NOT like you. Many kids and adults who refuse to grow up read wuxia and claimed that they learn essential lessons and great values in life. They claimed that JY is a great thinker and literary giant. They clog their brains with the so-called "Xia element" (when they are really enjoying the "wu"), insists that it is inspirational, educational to young kids, should be encouraged, and are out to pluck the eyes out of critics like a pack of injured wolves.

I suppose I should put my concern into context of what's happening in China now: Mr. JY was hailed by some as one of the greatest literary giants of the century, on par with Mr. Lu Xun. Excerpts of his novels has been incorporated as educational content in highschool while other classics such as Mr. Zhu Ji Qing and Lu Xun's pieces were thrown out. He was appointed, not as lecturer, not as professor, but DEAN of the School of Humanities at University of Zhe Jiang and supervisor of its PhD candidates.

Since when has education become not discipline, but entertainment? Since when is boredom the reason for omission from education? Has learning to spell, practicing how to write, or memorizing equations/math tables ever been NOT boring? Has studying to pass an exam ever been fun? Has working to earn a living ever been a breeze? Given complete autonomy, you think young kids will ever choose education, however "entertaining" it struggles to become, over play?

I ask again, where is China heading?

[HuangYushi]

Since when has education become not discipline, but entertainment? Since when is boredom the reason for omission from education? Has learning to spell, practicing how to write, or memorizing equations/math tables ever been NOT boring? Has studying to pass an exam ever been fun? Has working to earn a living ever been a breeze? Given complete autonomy, you think young kids will ever choose education, however "entertaining" it struggles to become, over play?

I would like to address this specific paragraph in its own context (without the reference to the inclusion of JY novels/excerpts in schools) from the viewpoint of a teacher.

I completely agree with you that education means discipline, and in many cases, the level of discipline required can lead to a lot of boredom for less disciplined or less motivated individuals. Studying to pass an exam is never fun, of course, and neither is working to earn a living ever a breeze. And young kids would certainly choose play over education, even up to a ripe old and greying age.

Yet, this is where teachers and educators come in. Well-trained and highly-skilled teachers and educators understand all the things listed above, and it is part of their (our) jobs to help these young kids realise that discipline and hard work is a necessary part of life that can be made enjoyable, and that education can actually be entertaining as well.

Personally, I demand a much higher level of discipline, commitment and hard work from my students than most teachers in the same grade-level, so much so that even parents sometimes wonder if all that discipline, commitment and hard work is actually necessary. But for students (and their parents) who go through the entire course right (either 2 or 3 years, with the option of doing only 1 year, the 3rd one, if willing to work doubly hard), they can actually see the fruit of their labours in the 4th year. Some even start seeing it as early as the 2nd or 3rd year.

At the same time, it is my responsibility to make all that hard work fun and entertaining for my students, so that they develop good habits, such as not waiting until the last minute to study for an exam (which of course, makes the act of studying "just to pass" a pain).

---

Going on to the use of JY novels/excerpts along with recognised literary classics in the classroom, I don't see anything really wrong with it ... IF it is balanced out and applied with the appropriate methods of teaching, be it for language arts, literature or any other subject area in which the novels/excerpts are used. What students get (benefit) from the classes and the materials used therein is related in a large part to how the curriculum is structured, and thereafter how the teacher plans and finally delivers the lessons in the classroom. Thus, it is entirely possible for a(n) [insert unsavoury descriptor, such as "unprepared", here] teacher to botch up even the best of curricula and materials.

I use JY novel excerpts and adaptation clips in my classroom when the situation is appropriate, something which happens a few times a year. While my students enjoy the clips, they have also had to deal with things like reading the related novel text and translating/explaining it to me. These tasks are not easy for them because they mostly consider these clips as entertainment. Yet, when they put in the required effort to read, translate and explain the text, they often tend to feel a sense of achievement once they receive positive feedback for their work.

HYS

PS: Apologies to the thread-starter, since the thread is about ROTK.

[Candide]

Candide, I congratulate you on your viewing Wuxia and its "lessons" in a light-hearted manner, if I read between your lines correctly, as it should be. Looks like you have outgrown wuxia and are placing it where it ought to be - entertainment and escapism.

You got it, although there's one little thing: my education was entertainment & escapism to me too.

My concern is that many other people are NOT like you. Many kids and adults who refuse to grow up read wuxia and claimed that they learn essential lessons and great values in life. They claimed that JY is a great thinker and literary giant. They clog their brains with the so-called "Xia element" (when they are really enjoying the "wu"), insists that it is inspirational, educational to young kids, should be encouraged, and are out to pluck the eyes out of critics like a pack of injured wolves.

Could be worse. They could believe in BS like Harry Potter, romantic comedies, Taiwanese and Korean melodramas, Japanese anime, violent video games... I understand your concern, but essentially it's "won't somebody think of the children?" Those kids need sensible adults to read, watch & discuss wuxia with them. Just like what I got from my dad.

I suppose I should put my concern into context of what's happening in China now: Mr. JY was hailed by some as one of the greatest literary giants of the century, on par with Mr. Lu Xun. Excerpts of his novels has been incorporated as educational content in highschool while other classics such as Mr. Zhu Ji Qing and Lu Xun's pieces were thrown out. He was appointed, not as lecturer, not as professor, but DEAN of the School of Humanities at University of Zhe Jiang and supervisor of its PhD candidates.

Jin Yong's works deserve a place in the curriculum. What else does he need to achieve in order to get that honour? Lu Xun's works (personally they bore me to sleep) although very well done are hardly known outside of the egghead circle. At the very least, high school kids could be inspired by him to become writers. Reading boring, well-written pieces just makes me wanna go out in the playground and kick some nerd's arse, or pull that pretty girl's pony tail.

As for him being appointed Dean, I'd make a point for him and say that he could teach other eggheads a thing or two about writing to capture the hearts and minds of people. Jin Yong achieved that. Did Lu Xun and Zhu Ji Qing? Nope.

Since when has education become not discipline, but entertainment?

Can't it be both?

Since when is boredom the reason for omission from education?

Forcing people to learn what they don't like will lead to a society full of eggheads who want white collar jobs and lead other people, while having no worker and nobody to do the dirty work. I'm not making that up. That's what countries like Vietnam and China are experiencing right now. Kids who are bored with education should never be forced to go all the way (beyond the basics) to high school and university/college. They should go to a TAFE and learn some skills.

Has learning to spell, practicing how to write, or memorizing equations/math tables ever been NOT boring?

Never was boring to me. I still remember the first time I memorized the maths tables. Mum left some housechores for Dad and I, and we were both lazy. Dad had a bet with me that I'd have to sweep the room if I couldn't do it after he finished his tea pot. I did it after he was still on his 2nd cup.

Has studying to pass an exam ever been fun?

It was always the most fun for me and now that I'm a working responsible adult, I really missed the excitement of watching soccer in the ungodly hours of the morning then rocking up at the exam venue wondering if I could remember WTF I learned during the semester and what I managed to cram into my head just before the soccer matches. I never got why other students were so serious about it, as if their grandmas just died the night before or their BF/GF just dumped them. Silly kids.

Has working to earn a living ever been a breeze?

I get to use Youtube, Facebook and post crap on SPCNET and similar forums while at work. Yep, it's been a breeze.

Given complete autonomy, you think young kids will ever choose education, however "entertaining" it struggles to become, over play?

Education doesn't have to be boring. Kids should be taught & encouraged to see the fun in everything, education or play, or *create* fun if there's none to be seen. I can't remember ever being truly bored at school or uni. Even when I was so sick of listening to the lecture that I fell asleep, I made my falling asleep fun. What's not to like about drooling and snoring right in front of the lecturer while daydreaming of telling your ex-GF to get in the kitchen and make you a sandwich?

If kids don't want to choose education, once they finish year 9 or 10, get them out of school, and apply for an apprenticeship to learn a trade.

I ask again, where is China heading?

A future with too many white collar eggheads and not enough tradesmen.

[Ren Ying Ying]

He was appointed, not as lecturer, not as professor, but DEAN of the School of Humanities at University of Zhe Jiang and supervisor of its PhD candidates.

while popularily known for his wuxia works, JY has written much non-fictional works, and worked in areas such as law & history. he spent perhaps 15 yrs on writing wuxia. the guy is 80+ now. he must have done some other things for the 40+ years in which he wasn't involved in wuxia...

on another note, since i'm not a student of literature, i'd like to know what exactly defines a good piece of "literature"? or rather, examples?

[expression]

Edit: Moderator, is there a way to split this thread out to another thread (title: wuxia and academia, please keep it within academia)? I too, apologize to the thread-starter.

it is part of their (our) jobs to help these young kids realise that discipline and hard work is a necessary part of life that can be made enjoyable, and that education can actually be entertaining as well.

I agree with you on this, although at some point there will have to be a cut-off and clarification: in the end education is about discipline, entertainment is just an assisting tool.

Order is the key: you can only discover genuine fun in learning AFTER you accept and respect its discipline, not the other way round. Education that flirts with or attempts to disguise as entertainment will only be mocked by students who prefer real entertainment.

I get to use Youtube, Facebook and post crap on SPCNET and similar forums while at work. Yep, it's been a breeze.

I escape to spcnet to post crap about reality to remind myself that work should be more than a breeze.

Forcing people to learn what they don't like will lead to a society full of eggheads who want white collar jobs and lead other people, while having no worker and nobody to do the dirty work.
If kids don't want to choose education, once they finish year 9 or 10, get them out of school, and apply for an apprenticeship to learn a trade.

Sure, higher education is not for everyone. And I completely support down-to-earthness, which is the opposite of wuxia’s doctrine that everyone wants to become the grandmaster (like NOW, gimme that secret scroll or die!! ) and lead other lesser masters, while having nobody who wants to be those anonymous dudes who get killed.

High-school dropout or PhD, you will need to face life square and serious BEFORE you can start enjoying it. Perhaps you’re there already, Candide, which is great, but trust me, you didn’t get there by reading wuxia.

Could be worse. They could believe in BS like Harry Potter, romantic comedies, Taiwanese and Korean melodramas, Japanese anime, violent video games...

I thought wuxia is the COMBINATION of all those? I suppose crap-combo is superior over piece-crap?

Too much for one post already to discuss about eggheads and Mr. JY’s qualifications to be dean over eggheads.

[shen diao xia]

I will like to revisit the point that I made about ROTK not being entertaining/readable enough for a novel. Spoken to a friend since and here are his views, which is the reason for this post and I agree somewhat.

The 4 Chinese classics were written way before the Western novels that we are comparing with, therefore not a fair comparison. (No specifics on time frame, though - pls comment if you know).

Novel writing / entertaining during those times were not considered respectable, which explain why novels were credited to a "pen name". And these were written by scholars who were trying to earn a living without moving too faraway from writing something of substance, therefore explaining the "textbook" style of writing. So, I guess these novels were written half heartedly without a full focus on readability.

But then, my next question is why would it be considered to be one of the 4 great Classics? Are there not other novels / books wriiten in China that qualifies?

[expression]

That's exactly the point. Development of Chinese novels STOPPED at the 4 classics. Perhaps we started earlier, but we stopped at a juvenile stage. There really has not been significant progress since then.

[Candide]

The 4 classics were written back in the Ming and Qing dynasties. So 13th~16th centuries.

The 4 Chinese classics were written way before the Western novels that we are comparing with, therefore not a fair comparison.

Which Western novels?

The 4 classics are an acquired taste. Your average western reader (that goes for Asians growing up in the Anglosphere as well) with ADHD and accustomed to a diet of McNovels and Hollywood chewing-gum movies will not be able to appreciate the entertainment value of those classics.

Read through the whole ROTK first before you make more hasty comments. When it gets beyond the opening stage with the chaos of the Yellow Turban rebellion and the various war lords, it will be very very entertaining. Say, wait till Zhuge Liang appears and lays the verbal smack down on Liu Bei's generals, Zhou Yu and Sun's advisors, etc. Or Zhao Yun's heroics in the Battle of Chang Ban.

That's exactly the point. Development of Chinese novels STOPPED at the 4 classics. Perhaps we started earlier, but we stopped at a juvenile stage. There really has not been significant progress since then.

expression, come on now, that's not fair. It's pretty damn hard to top the 4 classics. I haven't read any Western novel that comes close to them either, so let's not play blame the Chinese game (although I kinda love it - I'm Viet, you see).

[shen diao xia]

Which Western novels?

Mentioned earlier by other posters.

The 4 classics are an acquired taste. Your average western reader (that goes for Asians growing up in the Anglosphere as well) with ADHD and accustomed to a diet of McNovels and Hollywood chewing-gum movies will not be able to appreciate the entertainment value of those classics.

Read through the whole ROTK first before you make more hasty comments.

We are not on the same page here. What I meant was there are other novels that I find more readable / entertaining than ROTK (if that's how we judge the quality of novels - not sure if that is agreed?). I am still pushing on with ROTK, and I must say it is improving in terms of entertainment , but I am still pushing.......

let's not play blame the Chinese game (although I kinda love it - I'm Viet, you see).

If I am not wrong and if you are attentive enough, you would have noticed both of us are Chinese and there's no reason to do that. We are just expressing our opinions. Not too sure about Expression's point about the lack of novel development in China, though.

[owbjhx]

The 4 Chinese classics were written way before the Western novels that we are comparing with, therefore not a fair comparison. (No specifics on time frame, though - pls comment if you know).

For three of the Four ("ROTK", "Water Margin" and "Journey") that might be correct, but HLM was likely written during the 1750s. By then, at least one of the great English novels had already been published (e.g. Samuel Richardson's Clarissa, 1748), and a few decades later you get Jane Austen. So factually, the observation that the Four were written "way before" the major English novels isn't entirely right.

Novel writing / entertaining during those times were not considered respectable, which explain why novels were credited to a "pen name". And these were written by scholars who were trying to earn a living without moving too faraway from writing something of substance, therefore explaining the "textbook" style of writing. So, I guess these novels were written half heartedly without a full focus on readability.

Again, doesn't apply to HLM. Cao Xueqin, the author of HLM, wrote not to make a living but rather to entertain himself and his learned friends, and there's nothing textbook or half-hearted about the construction of his novel. "ROTK" is textbook-like, but I'd say that this is not out of half-heartedness but rather very deliberate: the work is modelled on official historiography in the 'annalistic' style, with a bit of mythology thrown in for good measure. To some extent, it's not really a 'novel' as we would understand it, so you may be right in suggesting that comparisons with certain other works might not be valid.

[expression]

Hmmm, now we are into dates. In terms of novels looks like the 1800s see the first real bloom in the West: Leo Tolstoy, Victor Hugo, Jane Austin, the Brontes, Alexandre Dumas, Charles Dickens. Before that, Cervantes pumped out Don Quixote in the 1600s.

So yeah, we can say the Chinese novel was developed earlier. Although we should also throw in the fact that our ingenius Chinese ancestors invented movable type printing as early as 1000s Song compared to the slow westerners who didn't get that until 1500s Renaissance. And printing was critical to the demand and hence development of novels.

Then we ask, did the development of Chinese novels really stopped after the 4 classics?
I say yes.

Why the heck did Gao Xing Jian get a nobel literature prize? Because:
novels dominate Western literature => Nobel literature prize = NoVel literature prize => they want to go global so they want to give one to the Chinese => they gasp at nothing great among recent Chinese novels => after some patient search, they picked Gao because of his "anti-government" flavour.

That was the so-called "high-end" stuff. For the "popular" stuff, we have Auntie Qiong Yao and Mr. Jin Yong who, 200 years after, copied... er, adapted generously from Jane Austin, Charlette Bronte, Charles Dickens, and Alexandre Dumas to make great literature.

Finally we ask, is it pretty darn hard to top the 4 classics? Well, let's say just because we can't do it ourselves doesn't mean others have not.

Now we step into the tough question of who makes the call? Sorry, the West does, because they've developed a working system of novel criticism which we Chinese don't have. We have to go by the only yardstick available.

I haven't read any Western novel that comes close to them either, so let's not play blame the Chinese game (although I kinda love it - I'm Viet, you see).

Awww, of course we count you as brother, Candide. We Chinese and Viets are in the same wrecked literary boat together.

[Candide]

We Viets would've produced far better writers if we hadn't had to pick up weapons every few years to fight off your nosy ancestors.

Then we ask, did the development of Chinese novels really stopped after the 4 classics?
I say yes.

Why the heck did Gao Xing Jian get a nobel literature prize? Because:
novels dominate Western literature => Nobel literature prize = NoVel literature prize => they want to go global so they want to give one to the Chinese => they gasp at nothing great among recent Chinese novels => after some patient search, they picked Gao because of his "anti-government" flavour.

I read a few Nobel prize-winning Western novels at school & college and I thought they were sh!thouse. In fact, they're so sh!t that I can't even remember the titles. I think they only give Nobel prizes to people who can bore the brains out of readers.

You can ask a very similar question: after the period of great success that produced the likes of Hugo, Voltaire, Dumas, Dickens & Tolstoy (I think Austen's stuff is horrible), what else have the West produced? Bugger all.

shen_diao_xia: I meant exactly that - ROTK is right up there among the most entertaining novels.

I know you're both Chinese, and in my experience, Chinese are always the ones who blame other Chinese for all sorts of problems. The rest of us just observe the fun and giggle.

[Han Solo]

I read a few Nobel prize-winning Western novels at school & college and I thought they were sh!thouse. In fact, they're so sh!t that I can't even remember the titles. I think they only give Nobel prizes to people who can bore the brains out of readers.

Surely that is not true, there are classics that would make you laugh silly like Catch-22.

Han Solo

[Candide]

Catch-22 didn't win any Nobel prize, did it?

[shen diao xia]

I meant exactly that - ROTK is right up there among the most entertaining novels.

Sure, you are entitled to your opinion. Doesn't take very much to entertain you, does it?

I know you're both Chinese, and in my experience, Chinese are always the ones who blame other Chinese for all sorts of problems. The rest of us just observe the fun and giggle.

Your experience is limited to the "Chinese" that you know. Yup, I am Chinese, proud to be one and I have a lot to criticise about other things, but right now I'll stick with self criticism and not bother with poking fire at everything else .