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Thread: At what point in LOCH did Gwok Jing's martial arts first pull ahead of Mui Chiu Fung?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default At what point in LOCH did Gwok Jing's martial arts first pull ahead of Mui Chiu Fung?

    During LOCH, Gwok Jing singlehandedly defeated Mui Chiu Fung for the first time during a skirmish at Returning Clouds Manor. At the time, however, Gwok Jing was not actually a more powerful fighter than Mui Chiu Fung; he won only by virtue of taking advantage of her blindness (using a silent modification of the Hong Lung 18 Palms). Had Mui Chiu Fung not been blind, Gwok Jing likely would have lost that fight.

    So at what point in LOCH did Gwok Jing's martial arts first truly pull ahead of Mui Chiu Fung's? When was the earliest possible time in the story that he could actually defeat her in a fair fight without exploiting her blindness?

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    end of novel, maybe?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    end of novel, maybe?
    Not that late. By then, he was leaps and bounds ahead of Mui Chiu Fung (likely at least two or three times more powerful than she), and he didn't just arrive at that point suddenly at the end of the story. It took him a while to progress to that point after the Returning Clouds Manor confrontation.

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Not that late. By then, he was leaps and bounds ahead of Mui Chiu Fung (likely at least two or three times more powerful than she), and he didn't just arrive at that point suddenly at the end of the story. It took him a while to progress to that point after the Returning Clouds Manor confrontation.
    what would make you believe that he is already 2 or 3 times more powerful than she is by the end of LOCH?

    of course, to determine the relationship of GJ's level & MCF's level...we'd also have to establish the relationship between LMC's level & MCF's level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    what would make you believe that he is already 2 or 3 times more powerful than she is by the end of LOCH?
    Seven Cheun Jen Sect second generation Taoists using the 7 Stars Big Dipper Formation were required to match the ability of one Great.

    None of the Cheun Jen Sect second generation Taoists (including their top three, Ma Yuk , Yau Chui Gei, and Wong Chui 1) was a match for Mui Chiu Fung one-on-one.

    Gwok Jing at the end of LOCH, however, was able to singlehandedly fight two Greats for a combined 600 strokes...something Mui Chiu Fung was incapable of doing (West Poison Au Yeung Fung killed her in a single stroke). East Heretic Wong Yerk See and North Beggar Hung 7 Gung each found that he could not defeat Gwok Jing by using only 70% of his ability; each of the Greats had to go all out to be certain he could defeat Gwok Jing. No Great ever had such difficulty fighting Mui Chiu Fung (of course, Au Yeung Fung was the only Great who ever fought her).

    Hence, end-of-LOCH Gwok Jing was at least two or three times more powerful than Mui Chiu Fung.

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Seven Cheun Jen Sect second generation Taoists using the 7 Stars Big Dipper Formation were required to match the ability of one Great.

    None of the Cheun Jen Sect second generation Taoists (including their top three, Ma Yuk , Yau Chui Gei, and Wong Chui 1) was a match for Mui Chiu Fung one-on-one.

    Gwok Jing at the end of LOCH, however, was able to singlehandedly fight two Greats for a combined 600 strokes...something Mui Chiu Fung was incapable of doing (West Poison Au Yeung Fung killed her in a single stroke). East Heretic Wong Yerk See and North Beggar Hung 7 Gung each found that he could not defeat Gwok Jing by using only 70% of his ability; each of the Greats had to go all out to be certain he could defeat Gwok Jing. No Great ever had such difficulty fighting Mui Chiu Fung (of course, Au Yeung Fung was the only Great who ever fought her).

    Hence, end-of-LOCH Gwok Jing was at least two or three times more powerful than Mui Chiu Fung.
    the treatment of the greats towards MCF & the treatment of the greats towards GJ is rather different. MCF never experience a Great going at 70% (OYF had used 100%, hoping to rid HYS). though, i would imagine that MCF did not have time to defend herself against OYF, for she was rushing to take the hit for HYS. taking a hit is a bit different from combat.

    of course, i said it is possible by the end of LOCH that GJ have surpassed MCF since he was afterall, able to withstand 100% Great for at least one stance (and perhaps a few more). but 2-3X more powerful than MCF? i'd say unlikely.
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 03-31-08 at 02:55 AM.

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    i would say after GJ got the training from Zhou Botong and learnt the left-right technique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shortsight View Post
    i would say after GJ got the training from Zhou Botong and learnt the left-right technique.
    That's a good candidate. My personal pick is after Gwok Jing recovered from his Ha Mo Gung injury. He seemed to be a much better fighter after recovering from that injury than he had been prior to the injury.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    what would make you believe that he is already 2 or 3 times more powerful than she is by the end of LOCH?

    of course, to determine the relationship of GJ's level & MCF's level...we'd also have to establish the relationship between LMC's level & MCF's level.
    Even before the end of the story, GJ was already capable of giving QQR a tough fight. MCF probably couldn't have done the same. Also, the gap between GJ and MCF was already pretty small during their exchange at the Lu manor. GJ got much more powerful after that fight. It's not inconceivable that he was 2-3 times more powerful than MCF at the end of LOCH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    .

    of course, i said it is possible by the end of LOCH that GJ have surpassed MCF since he was afterall, able to withstand 100% Great for at least one stance (and perhaps a few more). but 2-3X more powerful than MCF? i'd say unlikely.
    Considering that a Great was six to seven times more powerful than Mui Chiu Fung (who was only slightly ahead of the likes of Ma Yuk and Yau Chui Gei), and Gwok Jing was within striking distance of the Greats' level, two or three times seems quite reasonable.

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    Even before the end of the story, GJ was already capable of giving QQR a tough fight. MCF probably couldn't have done the same. Also, the gap between GJ and MCF was already pretty small during their exchange at the Lu manor. GJ got much more powerful after that fight. It's not inconceivable that he was 2-3 times more powerful than MCF at the end of LOCH.
    the gap can't possibly be that small at the Lu Manor considering that GJ was still no match for OYK at the time, and MCF is fairly bounds ahead of OYK.

    who knows what happens in the dark. at one point, GJ survived "fighting" OYF & QQR, (& ZBT to a certain extent) while when he was more powerful in the end, he was able to trouble one HYS, or one H7G. certainly u are not suggesting that OYF+QQR is only as good as one HYS or one H7G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Considering that a Great was six to seven times more powerful than Mui Chiu Fung (who was only slightly ahead of the likes of Ma Yuk and Yau Chui Gei), and Gwok Jing was within striking distance of the Greats' level, two or three times seems quite reasonable.
    i am not a believer of linear relationships in power. does it really mean that two persons at 50% of a great can equal one great? or would it take more, or less? would two guo jings at the end of LOCH really be able to defeat one great? i have my doubts

    also take into consideration that the likes of Qiu Chu Ji are different from the likes of Sun Bu Er.

    once again, i personally believe it would go back to what one consider the relationship of levels between MCF & LMC
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 03-31-08 at 04:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    the gap can't possibly be that small at the Lu Manor considering that GJ was still no match for OYK at the time, and MCF is fairly bounds ahead of OYK.
    Gwok Jing went into Returning Clouds Manor unable to defeat Au Yeung Hak, but left it able to do so after learning the final three Hong Lung Palms from North Beggar Hung 7 Gung. But was that before or after the showdown with Mui Chiu Fung?

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Gwok Jing went into Returning Clouds Manor unable to defeat Au Yeung Hak, but left it able to do so after learning the final three Hong Lung Palms from North Beggar Hung 7 Gung. But was that before or after the showdown with Mui Chiu Fung?
    it was after the manor...but he was still not able to defeat OYK after learning the remaining three stances, despite the fact that the complete set of XL18Z gave GJ an additional boost. although it did force OYK to use his "snake" fists...fact remains that GJ was unable to defeat OYK.
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 03-31-08 at 04:00 AM.

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    after ma yuk taught him to combine the 7 freak kung fu into 1.

    7 freak = 1 mui chiu fung
    7 freak + quen zhen internal energy > 1 mui chiu fung
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    i think he was above MCF after he had figured out the big dipper theory during the begger clan meet. he was able to match several moves with QQR who was on the same level as the greats. MCF wouldn't be able to handle him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    the gap can't possibly be that small at the Lu Manor considering that GJ was still no match for OYK at the time, and MCF is fairly bounds ahead of OYK.
    PJ proved that you can't use that kind of logic in JY's world. Just because a>b, and b>c, it doesn't automatically mean that a>c.

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    In terms of sheer power, he was probably ahead of Mei Chaofeng by the time he went to investigate the commotion on Peach Blossom Island. Remember that he matched palms with Ouyang Feng when blocking his strike towards Huang Rong (after she'd casually chucked some needles in his vicinity while he was winding up for an all out exchange with Hong Qigong), and not only was he not seriously injured (although he certainly didn't feel well), he was able to recover from that exchange immediately and block the way to Huang Rong again.

    Technically MCF would have had the advantage over Guo Jing until he was able to observe the Big Dipper formation in action, and suddenly various theories in 9 yin clicked into place. After that incident, GJ would have the adaptability of a Great, which even Qiu Qianren lacked.

    There's a nice incident in LOCH 2003 which wasn't in the novel. Guo Jing and Hong Qigong are sheltering on the mast, so Ouyang Feng goes to his cabin to think of a plan. OYF suggests he and Ouyang Ke take on Hong Qigong and Guo Jing together, with OYF taking on H7G and OYK GJ. OYK casually answers yes, which causes OYF to ask incredulously, "Did you hear what I said? What chance do you think you have of beating Guo Jing?" OYK replies 90%, then progressively scales down the number to OYF's derisive snorts until OYF declares he's lucky if he has 30% chance of victory. The incident wasn't in the novel, but one can imagine it happening out of the narrator's sight, so true was it to character.

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    The problem is that, past the beginning of the novel, we never see Mei Chaofeng fight unblinded. So there's no credible yardstick by which we can judge comparative martial arts, since we cannot say exactly how much blindness factors into any sort of comparison which we might try to make.
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