Gauging the power of JY characters by using other characters

[sarakoth]

Ok, many of us assume that a LOCK Great has seven times the power of a QZ master because it takes seven QZ masters, with a formation, to match a Great in combat. However, that is not considering the inefficiency of seven people fighting one. There's no way all seven of them can direct their full power toward their target at the same time, and no way a single Great can counter seven pairs of arms or seven swords coming at him at the same time. That was why the formation was created, to achieve better efficiency. The QZ masters can direct more of their power toward a single target, but it still does not mean 100% efficiency. So, in conclusion, I am making the bold statement that one Great = less than 7 QZ masters in raw power (3 or 4 suits me better)

[Wu Wudi]

Actually, the 7 QZ masters supposedly became more powerful through their formation so it's arguable that a great is more than 7x a QZ master.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Well, Wudi, what sarakoth is arguing is that the 7 QZ masters, when fighting together, do not truly fight 7 times as strong as one of them alone; basically, that due to inefficiencies in 'standard' group fighting, that a lot of their energy and power is lost. He proposes the argument that what the Big Dipper Formation does is not so much increase their power, as dramatically decrease the inefficiencies which are inherent in group fighting.

I would probably agree with that on principle, because as we can see from the fights, when faced with a palm from Ma Yu, Huang Yaoshi was forced to evade rather than block or take it head on. If Ma Yu's internal energy was seven times higher, and how much more dangerous would he have been?

[Ken Cheng]

I agree with Wu. Among the seven Cheun Jen Disciples, there was a huge discrepancy in ability as well. Yau Chui Gei, for example, was considerably more powerful than Sheun But Yee. Moreover, the combined force of the Cheun Jen 7 Disciples *without* the 7 Stars Big Dipper Formation is not enough to match a Great.

[tape]

In real life a formation couldn't create power from nothing, so I would agree that the formation probably just decreases efficiency and that a Great is less than 7x masters. But since this is wuxia I guess it's possible that somehow their powers are amplified.

However from what I remember the formation described didn't really have any wonderful techniques or swordplay, it just melded a couple of their powers together so they could attack and defend with much higher inner strength than they had individually. Based on that, and I think 3 or 4 of them together dealing strikes even HYS had to evade and trade palms with, I think this theory is correct.

[ChronoReverse]

The Big Dipper Formation (not the 7 Star Assembly Formation which did meld their internal energies) was mostly about positioning.

In any case, the term "power" is pretty vague. The Big Dipper Formation (BDF) won't allow 7 fighters of X strength to push 7X (although the 7 Star Assembly Formation would) but rather allows 7 fighters to fight more effectively.

The nature of formations allows for there to be no gaps/weaknesses in techniques and hence being "more powerful than the sum". This can't really be defined tightly (technique level even be that precisely define?)

[sarakoth]

I am not talking about combat performance but rather ability level. Many of the posters in this forum think that the average QZ master has 10% to 15% of a Great's power level (whatever that means) I am simply stating that that might not be the case because seven people fighting one person is very inefficient. The average QZ master might be 25% or even 30% of a Great, but it takes seven of them to match a Great in combat as it is impossible for all seven of them to attack at once or deflect at once. The same can apply to the fight between Qiu Chuji and the Seven Freaks.

[ChronoReverse]

Yes, but I'm saying that to say a fighter is 15% of someone else is too vague to have much meaning.

What is 15% of someone's technique? It's possible to have 15% of internal energy of course, but that's not the quantifier of a fighter. Even then, 7 Ma Yu's combining their internal energy perfectly might not necessarily have better internal energy than a Great.

[flamer]

Yea this was the same for XF in Juxian Manor and it was said that people could not use their full power in fear of hitting their allys. They had to stick to the wall and only attack few at a time. While XF could blast his XL18Z without much consideration.

[tape]

I thought the Big Dipper was about positioning and technique too, but from the fight with HYS and MCF they were gripping each other's arms and were touching one another (he he he) to make sure they each had the energy to repel attacks. I actually didn't see that much technique, it seemed more like the technique was based on being mobile while also being able to remain in contact with each other. My memory might be wrong though.

[CFT]

I think ChronoReverse has got it: "positioning".

Getting into the right position to:
1) not get in the way of your fellow attackers/defenders and
2) complement the attack/defense

As flamer points out, the main problem of melee attacks is getting in each others way. If one has a method of moving 4, 5, 6, 7 people around without getting in each others way then that is already very good. If you have a way for people to attack without worrying about defense because your buddy is covering you then that is already a significant improvement.