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Thread: Chow Bak Tung injured by Mongol arrows - how?!

  1. #1
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Chow Bak Tung injured by Mongol arrows - how?!

    It's a given that in wuxia, regular soldiers/archers shooting arrows at Greats-level fighters are basically wasting their armaments/effort/time, because 99% of the time, those arrows have no chance of actually hitting their targets. It's almost too easy for a Great to dodge, deflect, or even throw back incoming arrows shot at them by ordinary archers.

    Strangely, Chow Bak Tung, who might have been one of the top three fighters in the world at the end of ROCH, was injured by the arrows of Mongol archers in one of the final chapters of story. Somehow, after having defeated powerful foe after powerful foe for decades without sustaining significant injury, Chow Bak Tung was somewhat seriously wounded by the arrows of mere soldiers. How could this have happened? And why did it happen only to him and not Wong Yung and 1 Deng, who were with him at the time?

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    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
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    Quite interesting. At that time it was possible that the gang was surrounded and Zhou Botong was covering one end of the convoy. And wasnt it said Mongol archers are quite lethal? Or was it another novel.

    周伯通夺了两枝长矛,当先开路

    He was right at the front and only using two spears, while 黄药师和一灯各持一盾. HYS and YD were using shields.

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    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
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    Although the general consensus is that soldiers are useless against Great levels or MA in general. But a skilled group of Wulin guys is no match for any army. Eg Duan Yu, Xuzhu, Linjiu Palace, Beggar Sect, Shaolin Sect, 72 Islands 36 Caves. Could not defeat a stationed army. Given the level of skill of these guys, they cannot fight an army, and most of them died.

    群豪武功虽强,但每一人要抵敌
    七八人至十人,斗得久了,总不免寡不敌众

    一瞥眼间,只见城墙边七八
    名契丹武士
    围住了两名少林老僧狠斗。一名少林僧手舞戒刀,口中喷血,显是身受重伤,萧
    峰凝神看去,认得他是玄鸣;另一名少林僧挥动禅仗拼命掩护,却是玄石。
    lol 7-8 soldiers killing 2 Xuan Generation monk? But i guess the Xuans have fought a lot of soldiers and depleting their energies for quite some time.


    So maybe a large number renders MA less effective. And getting swarmed non stop by soldiers will drain internal energy quite fast i would think. So i think MA and Greats are very effective against soldiers, but only to a certain extent. (btw i reckon Guo Jing was killed by a swarm of soldiers, and not by a or some Mongol MA. If a person can defeat Guo Jing, he/she is definitely worth mentioning in later novels(another Great level fighter).)
    Last edited by flamer; 04-05-08 at 05:35 AM.

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    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    一瞥眼间,只见城墙边七八
    名契丹武士
    围住了两名少林老僧狠斗。一名少林僧手舞戒刀,口中喷血,显是身受重伤,萧
    峰凝神看去,认得他是玄鸣;另一名少林僧挥动禅仗拼命掩护,却是玄石。
    lol 7-8 soldiers killing 2 Xuan Generation monk? But i guess the Xuans have fought a lot of soldiers and depleting their energies for quite some time.
    Khitan warriors often are of a bigger size and more valiant etc. so martial arts aside, the Xuan generation monks might find it a difficulty dealing with them physically.
    ..ext88

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    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extremer88 View Post
    Khitan warriors often are of a bigger size and more valiant etc. so martial arts aside, the Xuan generation monks might find it a difficulty dealing with them physically.
    haha yea but Xuan Monks are pretty much the most powerful in DGSD aside from Elites(XZ,DY) and First Class (Murong, DCQ). But "MA aside" thing is strange lol cuz they are handling these soldiers with their MA so they shouldve been a breeze(anyone handling soldiers with "MA aside" would struggle, yes even Sweeper). But they got killed by 7-8 soldiers (they shouldve killed must more before this) should suggest something about skilled artists fighting against soldiers.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    haha yea but Xuan Monks are pretty much the most powerful in DGSD aside from Elites(XZ,DY) and First Class (Murong, DCQ). But "MA aside" thing is strange lol cuz they are handling these soldiers with their MA so they shouldve been a breeze(anyone handling soldiers with "MA aside" would struggle, yes even Sweeper). But they got killed by 7-8 soldiers (they shouldve killed must more before this) should suggest something about skilled artists fighting against soldiers.
    And yet, Yeung Teet Sum, one of the weakest fighters in the entire CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY (if not the Jin Yong canon), was able to singlehandedly kill two or three times that number of soldiers with his Yeung Family Spear Technique in the opening chapters of LOCH. You'd figure that a single Yeun-class monk from DGSD would be equivalent to at least 100 Yeung Teet Sums.

    Heck, the Gong Nam 7 Freaks successfully defeated a group of 100 wulin enemies without much trouble (100/7 is approximately 14 opponents per Freak), so if a Freak could handle fourteen wulin-type enemies without breaking a sweat, how would a DGSD Yeun-class monk struggle against six or seven soldiers?

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Maybe the Xuan generation monks first fell into a trap which depleted 95% of their power. With only 5% of power left, they struggled against 8 soldiers.

    Or maybe they had to fight 400 soldiers at first. After the soldiers almost finished them, the other 392 left to do other things, and left the kill to the remaining 8 who should have no problem now.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    I've never been an advocate of the view that Greats-level (or even higher) martial artists have absolute invincibility against soldiers. Throw enough soldiers at them for a long enough period of time and sheer attrition will take down anyone, even the Janitor Monk (although the cost to the attacking army would be prohibitively high). But that's only if the Great foolishly just stands there and attempts to fight it out with every last soldier that's thrown at him. Singlehandedly beating an entire army is out of the question, even for a Great, but getting around or through an army (combining stealth with power) isn't especially difficult for even sub-Greats martial artists. A Great can certainly survive and avoid injury against an army as long as he doesn't attempt a head-on confrontation with the army.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Maybe the Xuan generation monks first fell into a trap which depleted 95% of their power. With only 5% of power left, they struggled against 8 soldiers.

    Or maybe they had to fight 400 soldiers at first. After the soldiers almost finished them, the other 392 left to do other things, and left the kill to the remaining 8 who should have no problem now.
    Back to my theory that Xuan generation monks were not all equal. Those 2 that got slain might not even have mastered/learnt any of the 72 arts yet.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Back to my theory that Xuan generation monks were not all equal. Those 2 that got slain might not even have mastered/learnt any of the 72 arts yet.
    If we are to accept that they lost to 8 Khitan warriors (with no outside interference):

    To learn how good Xuanming and Xuanshi are, we can do a simple comparison.

    -Xuanming and Xuanshi combined couldn't handle 8 Khitan warriors.

    -In ROCH, Yang Guo said this about Xiaoxiang Zi and Yin Kexi: 以你两位的功夫,别说四名蒙古武士,便是四十名、四百名,又怎能将你们打倒?

    So, Xiaoxiang Zi + Yin Kexi > 400 Mongolian warriors.

    How many Mongolian warriors = 1 Khitan warriors? Even if 1 Khitan warrior = 10 Mongolian warriors (which is really pushing the envelope already), that still means Xiaoxiang Zi and Yin Kexi are EACH 5 times better than the lower Xuan-generation monks.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    If we are to accept that they lost to 8 Khitan warriors (with no outside interference):

    To learn how good Xuanming and Xuanshi are, we can do a simple comparison.

    -Xuanming and Xuanshi combined couldn't handle 8 Khitan warriors.

    -In ROCH, Yang Guo said this about Xiaoxiang Zi and Yin Kexi: 以你两位的功夫,别说四名蒙古武士,便是四十名、四百名,又怎能将你们打倒?

    So, Xiaoxiang Zi + Yin Kexi > 400 Mongolian warriors.

    How many Mongolian warriors = 1 Khitan warriors? Even if 1 Khitan warrior = 10 Mongolian warriors (which is really pushing the envelope already), that still means Xiaoxiang Zi and Yin Kexi are EACH 5 times better than the lower Xuan-generation monks.
    or maybe the big upset is that YKX & XXZ >> Xuan generation monk kakakaka!

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    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
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    Im more inclined to think the two Xuans fought a lot more soldiers before they got killed by 8. Cuz it was near the end of the rescue and they wouldve been fighting for a few hours... But a few hours is enough to deplete someone's internal?

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    Senior Member sarakoth's Avatar
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    I'm sure anything short of a personal chi shield would be swamped by thousands of Mongol arrows.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    It was probably included by JY as he wanted to stress the point that even the most elite fighter cannot hope to prevail against an entire army. Highlighting the helplessness of the wulin warriors fighting alone against the Mongols without the Song Court's proper support.

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    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    It was probably included by JY as he wanted to stress the point that even the most elite fighter cannot hope to prevail against an entire army. Highlighting the helplessness of the wulin warriors fighting alone against the Mongols without the Song Court's proper support.
    I agree. And in DGSD, it was said the two groups of 10,000 Khitan horsemen would like totally demolish the Wuliners... Which also numbered at least a few thousand if not ten thousand...

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    About 5000 of heavily armed Mongols were threatening to wipe out the entire HSDS wulin folks who attended the Lion Slaying Conference near the end of the novel, until the Ming army arrived and drove the Mongols away.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    About 5000 of heavily armed Mongols were threatening to wipe out the entire HSDS wulin folks who attended the Lion Slaying Conference near the end of the novel, until the Ming army arrived and drove the Mongols away.
    And note these were the best of the HSDS period. Although some might be injured due to fights.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    About 5000 of heavily armed Mongols were threatening to wipe out the entire HSDS wulin folks who attended the Lion Slaying Conference near the end of the novel, until the Ming army arrived and drove the Mongols away.
    Yes, If they use arrows and such "technologies," the Wulin might not be a match.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Gives you a greater appreciation for spies who infiltrated enemy armies. Getting in and out safely with the intel must have been one daunting challenge when even elite martial artists with superior hing gung struggled to do so.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    There really is no realistic answer to this question which can give internal coherence to martial arts stories.

    Someone who can jump 30 feet up, block hundreds of arrows bare handed, swing a sword 30x in a blink of an eye and palm blast people from 30 feet away and kick entire horses up in the air will in real life demolish an army.

    Why? Because in real life, even in massed battles, the other side WILL run away once the front collapses. In historical battles, most academics agree that not more than 5-10% actually die before the whole gang routs.

    The most accurate IMHO depiction would be the DGSD style where the martial artist goes in and KOs/catches the opposing leader/general because he cant be stopped.

    Also. if you do it Dynasty Warriors I-X style, just blasting the front ranks and having soldiers fly from your blows like how Sauron was wiping the alliance with his mace in the LOTR movie opening, the entire enemy army WILL run if they are humans.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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