Organizations that you dislike

[PJ]

Time to bust out more idiosyncracies :-)

Which wuxia Organizations do you not like?

I don't like these organizations:

-Beggar's Union

-Huashan

-Shaolin

-Taishan

-Qingcheng Shan

Anyone want to guess why?

[HuangYushi]

-Qingcheng Shan

Is that 青城山 in characters?
If it is, I am not particularly fond of the one found in SPW. But I think it's not really the organisation per se, but the people who populate it. Yu Canghai and his disciples (especially the top 4) are quite detestable.

But the one from the DGSD era is all right, and made more so by its likeable (generally) characters (hint, hint ) and its cool (in a sense, but not necessarily powerful) weapon, something that was "lost" [失传 perhaps?] by the time the SPW era dawned.

Man, I sound convulated!

[PJ]

Does it seem like to you, that the second generation Qingcheng disciples in DGSD are weaker than what you'd expect from second generation disciples of a prominent organization?

[Ken Cheng]

Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect
Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect Ancient Tomb Sect

And Ling Jau Palace and Chow Chi Yerk-era Ngor Mei Sect was pretty annoying too.

Say, did I mention that I didn't like the Ancient Tomb Sect? Can't remember if I did or not...

[HuangYushi]

Does it seem like to you, that the second generation Qingcheng disciples in DGSD are weaker than what you'd expect from second generation disciples of a prominent organization?

First, a couple of things:
1. By "second generation", I assume that you are referring to people like Zhu Baokun and Sima Lin.
2. Therefore, Sima Wei, Old Jiang and Old Meng would be considered the "first generation" and a possible yardstick with which to assess the extent of "weakness" in the second generation.

Second, I do not think that the second generation disciples (Zhu Baokun, Sima Lin et al) are "weaker than expected", mainly because in general, disciples (in any organisation) would initially have to work from whatever martial arts their organisation hands out to them. The martial arts would combine with the disciples' own diligence and talent to produce whatever end-result you see. If every contributing factor is positive, the outcome would likely be positive. In the same way, any negative contributing factors would have an adverse effect on the outcome.

For Qingcheng in DGSD, the number and type of "second generation" disciples as well as the situations in which these disciples display their skills are insufficient for me to say that they are "weaker than what is expected of them".

In the case of Zhu Baokun (who was a "second generation" disciple, as opposed to Sima Wei, his teacher, who was the "first generation"), a reading of Chapter 13 reveals the following:

1. Zhu learnt all the consummate techniques of Qingcheng within 7-8 years. A person of the same generation (as Zhu) with a longer learning curve would certainly appear weaker compared to Zhu.

2. Zhu was taught all these techniques by Sima Wei because Sima felt bad when Zhu lavished him with gifts (part of a ploy that worked because Sima could actually feel bad). Under normal circumstances, Sima Wei might not have taught Zhu (or any of his "second generation" disciples) all the techniques, or might have taken a much longer time to cover all the techniques. Consequently, the "second generation" would end up appearing to be "weaker".

3. Zhu was grateful to Sima Wei for not holding anything back during the impartation of skills, but at the same time, felt very disappointed at the limited range, breadth and depth of the martial arts techniques at Qingcheng (as demonstrated by Sima Lin, Jiang and Meng in their attack against him). This is an example of a certain level talent (positive contributing factor) being held back by a certain level of martial arts (negative contributing factor), hence creating a certain picture of "comparative weakness"

4. Zhu appeared "weaker" than Jiang and Meng although they basically had the same set of techniques because Jiang/Meng probably had a lot more experience than he did. Plus, Jiang/Meng had the opportunity to use the 'Thunder Net of Mother Earth' [地母雷网] array/formation, something that Zhu could not use because he was facing Jiang/Meng alone.

5. Zhu was one of the 5 people in Qingcheng who could perform the 'Moon-Breaking Awl' [破月锥], which involved the forming of one's five fingers into a point, and sending forth a burst of internal strength through that point to penetrate the enemy's eardrum. The other four people were Sima Wei ("first generation"), Sima Lin ("second generation"), and two other unnamed members of Qingcheng whose generational status could not be determined. Here, Zhu and Sima Lin seem to be as good as the first generation.

5. Zhu did not get to learn the 'Heaven and Earth in One's Sleeves' [袖里乾坤], which was a heirloom technique restricted only to the Sima family. Sima Lin ("second generation") learnt and practiced/used it, so it might serve to make Sima Lin look stronger than Zhu. But if Sima Lin did not have other contributing factors like personal diligence and talent, he might not have been able to use the 'Heaven and Earth in One's Sleeves' at his father Sima Wei's level, thus making Sima Lin seem comparatively weaker than Sima Wei.

---

Apologies if I sound convulated (again). I'm trying to keep my eyes open as I type (way past bedtime).

[PJ]

When I say "expected," I mean compared to the general population of second generation disciples from prominent organizations in Jin Yong's universe. Like Kongtong, Kunlun, Emei, Huashan, etc.

[tape]

Holy crap how do you remember so many details?!

[JamesG]

Holy crap how do you remember so many details?!

Fanatic-fanatic-fanatic

[Tom]

Ancient Tomb

I don't necessarily "hate" Ancient Tomb Sect but it doesn't impress me either. The martial arts just seem rather plain when compared to some of the other martial arts of the same era.

The names for the arts are also somewhat wacky.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Ken just doesn't like women.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Ken just doesn't like women.

i thought we already established that it was because he is secretly in love with Yang Guo

now about sect, i was never too fond of the shaolin sect. they always came across as snobby and nosy monks.

[HuangYushi]

When I say "expected," I mean compared to the general population of second generation disciples from prominent organizations in Jin Yong's universe. Like Kongtong, Kunlun, Emei, Huashan, etc.

Apologies, I misunderstood. Sleepiness does have a way of messing with one's brain.

Anyways, if we are looking at the general population of second generation disciples of prominent organisations regardless of era, I wouldn't venture to make a definite statement as to whether these second generation disciples seem weaker than their predecessors or not. The main reason: there isn't enough information factual on the prowess of the first and the second generations to make such an assessment.

1. Qingcheng in DGSD (earliest mention): Sima Wei had just died and his son Sima Wei had just stepped up to be the leader, but Sima Wei certainly did not found (start) Qingcheng, because the enmity between Qingcheng and Penglai was about a century old at that point in time. Therefore, Sima Wei and Sima Lin were unlikely to be older than the fourth and the fifth generation respectively.

2. Kongtong (earliest mention: HSDS 2nd ed; DGSD 3rd ed): According to Athena in this thread, the disciples of Kongtong did not make an appearance (in DGSD 3rd ed) despite the organisation being mentioned. So we can't identify the first and the second generations, or compare their abilities.

3. Kunlun in DGSD (earliest mention): The Xiaoyao-pai cave in the Boundless Mountains had a shelf marked out for the martial arts manuals of Kunlun, so I would think that Kunlun would have been long established even before the days when Wuyazi and Li Qiushui lived in the cave as a couple, in order to have developed a set of skills that were good enough to be collector's items. But I can't recall off-hand whether the first and the second generations of Kunlun were mentioned in DGSD or not. ::blur::

4. Emei in HSDS (earliest mention): We know that Guo Xiang founded the school, and she probably had quite a well-developed range of techniques to pass down to her disciples (the second generation) because Miejue (the third generation) had a good skill-set as well as the ability to create new techniques [灭剑 and 绝剑]. Where Emei is concerned, I would say that the second generation was probably quite comparable to the first generation.

5. Huashan in HSDS (earliest mention): Since Hao Datong (of Quanzhen) was supposed to have founded Huashan, the 2 unnamed old men whom Zhang Wuji fought on Brightness Peak (uncle-at-arms of leader Xianyu Tong) were probably to be in the same generation as Miejue (the 3rd, stretching it a bit), the 4th or the 5th (since Hao Datong was a lot older than Guo Xiang). Hao Datong didn't get much opportunity to display his individual prowess in LOCH/ROCH (compared to Qiu Chuji), but going by the ability of the 2 unnamed old men in HSDS, Hao Datong's disciples (the 2nd generation) shouldn't be that weak.

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EDIT (an hour later):

I think I misunderstood again!!!
Something is wrong with the brain!

I'm supposed to compare a bunch of second generation disciples with another, right?

All right, here goes:
Based on whatever I've written in Post #5 and above, no, I don't think that a bunch of second generation disciples from one organisation is (or would appear/seem) comparatively weaker to their contemporaries from the next organisation (in reply to Post #6).





** Note to self: Should just write a one-line answer next time, instead of 5 paragraphs. ***

[Felix]

Ken just doesn't like women.

Well, his weakness is Joey Meng. If Joey Meng take on THAT role HERSELF, Ken Cheng will be the leader of "The Official Fan Club of Little..." you can fill in the rest.

[Radken]

** Note to self: Should just write a one-line answer next time, instead of 5 paragraphs. ***

I appreciate your consistency to be detailed. If everyone posts like me then there be nothing to read.

[jsamador]

Where was that mentioned that Hao Datong founded Huashan?

[shanghai girls are hot]

the ones that hate men

[odbayarb2000]

Where was that mentioned that Hao Datong founded Huashan?

It's a historical fact. So fans assumed it same for Jingyong universe.

[Han Solo]

Where was that mentioned that Hao Datong founded Huashan?

Hao Datong was believed in Taoism teachings to be an immortal on Huashan- absolutely not related to JY timeline as in HSDS, Huashan has already been established for 200+ years.

Han Solo

[HuangYushi]

Back to topic:

Here's another organisation that I don't like: Passionless Valley [绝情谷].

Gongsun Zhi was unlikeable, but he did not have the classiness of Ouyang Feng, the craftiness of Jiumozhi or the weirdness of Dongfang Bubai.

Qiu Qianchi was scorned and bitter, but her actions did not manage to fill readers (or me, at least) with the sort of excitement and apprehension that accompanied the freaky old woman, bees, poison, poems and flowers that Mrs Wang sent to get her daughter Yuyan (and the other people whom she hated) home towards the end of DGSD.

Gongsun Lu'e was pitiful, but her story lacked the tragedy of Ling Shuanghua, Cheng Lingsu and even Qi Fang.

In short, Zhou Botong shouldn't have ventured into that particular corner of China and brought the Passionless Valley and its inhabitants into the knowledge of the martial arts circle. Gongsun Zhi, his family and his minions should have remained hidden and isolated for all time.