Dongfang Bubai (under constraints) -vs- Dugu Qiubai (under constraints)

[PJ]

Both contestants are not allowed to use any internal energy.

Dongfang Bubai can use his speed, while Dugu Qiubai can use his sword art,
but can't use internal energy to power them.

Who would win in this battle without internal energy?

[Ren Wo Xing]

Well, we have no idea how fast DGQB is. Also, how much of DFBB's speed comes from his/her internal energy?

[PJ]

●葵花寶典（辟邪劍法）和獨孤九劍相較何者強？（蔡子正）
金庸：我想應該是獨孤九劍會贏吧！

The thing which may help you decide, is that Jin Yong said in an interview that (he thinks) Dugu 9 Swords is superior to Sunflower Manuscript. If you believe that Dugu Qiubai is a master of Dugu 9 Swords (which seems to be a reasonable assumption), then you can draw some conclusion from the interview. Not to mention, Dugu Qiubai knows more than Dugu 9 Swords.

[Ren Ying Ying]

DGQB puts his sword in a "surprising" position---and he wins

[shortsight]

Dugu here is just like super Linghu Chung during the time his internal is screwed up. DFBB here is like a dumb down version of the one fighting with Ren Woxing, Xiang Wentian and LHC.

Probably Dugu has the upper hand.

[Candide]

With no internal energy, DFBB would be like Lin Pingzhi's father or other lame ducks who got the moves but didn't get the internal energy part of QFBD.

Linghu Chung thought (when observing DFBB and LPZ) that the swordplay was nothing to write home about but at the speed it was executed at, it was lethal and near impossible to defeat.

[Extremer88]

This seems a bit one-sided. I can imagine DFBB running around like a sissy during the fight.

[bliss]

Yes, this wouldn't really be much of a contest I think. A better version of Linghu Chong versus a better version of Lin Zhennam. An internal energy independent sword art versus a very internal energy dependent sword art.

[PJ]

Yes, this wouldn't really be much of a contest I think. A better version of Linghu Chong versus a better version of Lin Zhennam. An internal energy independent sword art versus a very internal energy dependent sword art.

Why do you think that it would be a better version of Lin Zhennan and not a better version of Lin Pingzhi? Lin Pingzhi seemed to have very little internal energy and yet he was defeating a first class fighter in one stance, and it was said that even an Elite fighter (such as Ren Woxing) would have trouble blocking a stance from Lin Pingzhi.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Why do you think that it would be a better version of Lin Zhennan and not a better version of Lin Pingzhi? Lin Pingzhi seemed to have very little internal energy and yet he was defeating a first class fighter in one stance, and it was said that even an Elite fighter (such as Ren Woxing) would have trouble blocking a stance from Lin Pingzhi.

People are basing the speed off of internal energy.

[pannonian]

Why do you think that it would be a better version of Lin Zhennan and not a better version of Lin Pingzhi? Lin Pingzhi seemed to have very little internal energy and yet he was defeating a first class fighter in one stance, and it was said that even an Elite fighter (such as Ren Woxing) would have trouble blocking a stance from Lin Pingzhi.

The BXJF Lin Pingzhi practiced was the proper nutless version, whereas Lin Zhennan's version didn't involve the cut. BXJF was supposed to start with the most difficult bit first, which was the chop, with the bits that came after being relatively simple. From that, it's generally accepted that the salient part (pardon the pun) of BXJF, its speed, is derived from the chop, which somehow affects the internal workings enough to make its flawed swordplay effective.

One wonders what BXJF-derived internal combined with DG9J or HIS would be like.

[PJ]

When Yu Canghai received a direct blow from Lin Pingzhi, he noticed that there was almost no internal energy behind Lin Pingzhi's strike. What this tells me is that Lin Pingzhi had an internal energy level of close to zero, and yet he was still able to move around pretty fast and unpredictably, quickly subduing a First Class Fighter like Yu Canghai. I guess Dongfang Bubai without using internal energy should be at least as fast and sneaky as post-castration Lin Pingzhi.

[bliss]

Why do you think that it would be a better version of Lin Zhennan and not a better version of Lin Pingzhi? Lin Pingzhi seemed to have very little internal energy and yet he was defeating a first class fighter in one stance, and it was said that even an Elite fighter (such as Ren Woxing) would have trouble blocking a stance from Lin Pingzhi.

It just doesn't seem to make much sense that the technique itself would make a fighter's attacks faster. Techniques are only as fast as they are executed by the practitioner. It had to be the internal energy portion of it that powers the speed. Dongfang Bubai stated that he cultivated his internal energy diligently after he first started practicing Kuihua Bodian. Unless Bixie is based on a completely different interpretation of the original manuscript, I figured the same would be the case for Lin Pingzhi/Lin Zhennam.

But I do see your point in how Lin had virtually no internal energy but was still able to move extremely fast. I think we might have to blame this on it being a necessary plot device to let Lin Pingzhi extract revenge ...

[CC]

And to add to the disjointedness of it all, JY himself stated in the 100 question interview that KHBD was a 'Swordplay with its focus on _inner_energy'.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Suggestion: KHBD was focused on inner energy, but it initially channels the majority of the built-up inner energy into speeding up the strokes and movements dramatically. After the initial bump, there is a 'diminishing returns' effect, and it then builds up the internal energy so that DFBB is able to use a needle to block LHC/RWX's swords.

[ChronoReverse]

That would be the logical assumption.

It's clear that PXJF is internal energy based from the very first line. The whole castration thing was to preventing fire deviation because of the unusual internal energy method. JY himself said it was internal energy based. DFBB demonstrated incredible internal energy.

[Wu Wudi]

This is a tough fight for DFBB because he'll run out of moves faster than DGQB. One caveat to that argument, however, is that it's entirely possible that DFBB has reached such a level that his QHBD is no longer constrained by having only 72 stances.

[shenlong]

I pick the one with the better name.

[ChronoReverse]

This is a tough fight for DFBB because he'll run out of moves faster than DGQB. One caveat to that argument, however, is that it's entirely possible that DFBB has reached such a level that his QHBD is no longer constrained by having only 72 stances.

I don't think there even is 72 stances in the KHBD practiced by DFBB. The 72 stances of PXJF were a ruse created by Lin Yuantu to disguise the real power of KHBD. With that kind of speed, the technique itself didn't really matter too much.

From what I can tell, Lin Yuantu was likely at some level of formlessness.

[Wu Wudi]

The 72 stances of PXJF were a ruse created by Lin Yuantu to disguise the real power of KHBD.

Is that what was said in the novel? I've always thought that PXJF was the closest to complete version of KHBD.