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Thread: How far can technique alone get you in the Song and Yuan dynasties?

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Default How far can technique alone get you in the Song and Yuan dynasties?

    In the Song and Yuan eras**, internal energy was rather crucial for becoming a powerful exponent. However there were a few individuals who reached high level without much internal energy. They are: Xiao Longnu and Zhou Zhiruo.

    OK, but what if you had NO internal energy during those eras... or if you only had 10% of Xiao Longnu's internal energy? How far could you POSSIBLY get?

    What if Duan Yu only learned Lingbo Weibu? Did it come with internal energy? If not, can he still become the king of short distance traversing?

    Well, in HSDS, Yang Xiao and Fan Yao's techniques were second to none, and yet these fancy techniques were useless against a Du-generation monk. But, the thing is, they weren't outlandishly dazzling techniques. What if you had an outlandishly dazzling or extremely weird technique?


    **I purposely excluded Ming era b/c we know if you use Sunflower Manuscript or Evil-Slaying Swordplay, you can become near invincible with about 10% of Xiao Longnu's internal energy. I am interested in discussing the same scenario is possible in earlier eras or not.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member HuangYushi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    What if Duan Yu only learned Lingbo Weibu? Did it come with internal energy? If not, can he still become the king of short distance traversing?
    Answers here.
    Jin Yong's Ode to Gallantry [侠客行].
    Quote Originally Posted by atlantean0208
    what about SPT, I need my SPT fix ASAP, pretty pleaseeeee...
    Soon ... SOON!

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuangYushi View Post
    Answers here.
    Aha, I always wondered about that.
    Thank you very much.

    OK, we can scratch Duan Yu off the list of potential TAPHLEs: Technique Alone Propelled High Level Exponent.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Duan family inner power could help Duan Yu merge the different internal energies in his body? I wonder if it could have helped Linghu Chong too?

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    this ones relatively straight forward......
    take it as MIKE TYSON vs JACKIE CHEN

    jackie can, with all his fancy techniques, pound all over tyson. and tyson could just stand their and take it. then one right hand blow from tyson and jackie is like a dead turkey.

    so what matters is, better technique would only improve jackie against his comparables like jet li.

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    Senior Member Tom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hum.tum141 View Post
    this ones relatively straight forward......
    take it as MIKE TYSON vs JACKIE CHEN

    jackie can, with all his fancy techniques, pound all over tyson. and tyson could just stand their and take it. then one right hand blow from tyson and jackie is like a dead turkey.

    so what matters is, better technique would only improve jackie against his comparables like jet li.
    That's not a fair comparison. Jackie doesn't do boxing.

    Ippo vs. Tyson would be a good match.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hum.tum141 View Post
    this ones relatively straight forward......
    take it as MIKE TYSON vs JACKIE CHEN

    jackie can, with all his fancy techniques, pound all over tyson. and tyson could just stand their and take it. then one right hand blow from tyson and jackie is like a dead turkey.

    so what matters is, better technique would only improve jackie against his comparables like jet li.
    I would like to see ANYONE just standing there and coping it from an adult male. I do not think thats possible. Do not blindly worship thanks.

    Back to the topic:

    I think at least some sort of internal is required. XLN's internal was said to be so weak, that her Jade Maiden Swordplay cannot break Nimo Xing-level fighters' guard. So her fancy swordplay did not take her too far as long as they blocked.

    I think internal energy is quite crucial.

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    Jackie Chan doesn't even have better technique than Mike Tyson.
    Reverend Rongku prepared himself.

    Suddenly, he toss his hands and screamed: "I am not human! I am an animal!"

    The crowd startled at such a bizarre beginning to the story.

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    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    Are we talking about technique or external martial arts?

    I think technique is the aesthetic way in which an external martial arts is executed. I wouldn't dare to say that technique alone could propel any martial artists to great heights.

    * Let's say for example, a footballer with great technique - but that doesn't mean he could get past any players of the same build as him easily. He would still need to have better pace, acceleration and stamina (which we could classify them as "internal energy").

    But on the other hand, technique could be used to fool or confuse the opposition, especially if they are complicated and weird, eg. Persian martial arts.
    ..ext88

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    You can get as far as Murong Fu got. A lot of flash to dazzle (even win against) people, but no internal foundation to really be great. Murong Fu had all kinds of great martial arts techniques. He had Wang Yuyan to help him with his techniques. But he had no really good internal arts. His shortcomings really shown through when he needed the help of You Tanzhi to help him fight Xiao Feng.
    Last edited by Dennis Chen; 04-22-08 at 02:12 AM.

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    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    You can get as far as Murong Fu got. A lot of flash to dazzle people, but no internal foundation to really win against people.

    Murong Fu's internal was quite profound, although pale in contrast with Sweeper Monk, Murong Bo and Jiu Mozhi etc. I think we should think more on the lines of zero internal or very very low internal. And as i said before, i think internal is vitally important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    Murong Fu's internal was quite profound, although pale in contrast with Sweeper Monk, Murong Bo and Jiu Mozhi etc. I think we should think more on the lines of zero internal or very very low internal. And as i said before, i think internal is vitally important.
    Honestly, I think it's a wash. You Tanzhi had one of the most abundant internal energies in DGSD and Murong Fu had some of the best techniques in Jiang Hu. Neither were a match for the balance of Xiao Feng alone. Like Chinese philosophy, it's balance that's the most important.

    I guess I'm missing the question.
    Last edited by Dennis Chen; 04-22-08 at 03:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    Honestly, I think it's a wash. You Tanzhi had one of the most abundant internal energies in DGSD and Murong Fu had some of the best techniques in Jiang Hu. Neither were a match for the balance of Xiao Feng alone. Like Chinese philosophy, it's balance that's the most important.

    I guess I'm missing the question.
    well, murong fu was a jack of all trades, but a master of none. there's a difference between knowing techniques and excelling in techniques.
    so technically, you can't say he has "good" technique either regardless of whether or not he had good internal energy

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    Although I've endorsed DG9J over YG's HIS techniques, I do believe that having high internal power is the most important step in being a great. I think that's true of any era although what's considered high internal power is all relative to each specific era. But once enough internal power has been attained to reach Great level, then I believe that technique becomes more important. Therefore, it's arguable that technique is ultimately more important because it's the bigger factor in determining victory in a battle between greats.

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    Isn't the first part of sunflower to build up internal energy?
    秋风清,秋风明;落叶聚还散,寒鸦栖复惊。相思相见知何日,此时此夜难为情

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    Although I've endorsed DG9J over YG's HIS techniques, I do believe that having high internal power is the most important step in being a great. I think that's true of any era although what's considered high internal power is all relative to each specific era. But once enough internal power has been attained to reach Great level, then I believe that technique becomes more important. Therefore, it's arguable that technique is ultimately more important because it's the bigger factor in determining victory in a battle between greats.
    But then a Sweeper level inner power guy comes along and slaps the Great around with a simple punch. The scenario you seem to be proposing is that if everyone has Great level internal, then technique becomes more important, but of course that's true since the internal level is the same. It can be seen that technique is completely useless when Xu Zhu fought JMZ at Shaolin, as Xu Zhu trumped the internal of this great level fighter; it's all relative, there is no magic Great level.

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    The thing is, for all those who don't have "magic" power boosts (whether by freak accidents with calligraphy, old men in caves, bags, poisonous creatures) the practice of internal energy seems to start leveling as a certain point.

    Not a flat level but something like a logarithmic graph. Actually maybe not even that since as you reach a certain age, internal energy starts to decline naturally (although it can be increased slowly or sustained with continued cultivation).

    For technique, the more experience you have, the less need you need to move "that quickly". With a solid internal energy base, moving "quickly enough" is quite possible.

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    I agree with that, but I mean it's just a given that when your internal strength is comparable, then technique is the deciding factor. If there is a big gap is what we're discussing originally I believe.

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Certainly. I feel that this forum often gets way too caught up in extremes instead of looking at things logically with reasonable criteria. If there's a significant gap in internal energy, it'll take a significant gap in technique to make up for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    But then a Sweeper level inner power guy comes along and slaps the Great around with a simple punch. The scenario you seem to be proposing is that if everyone has Great level internal, then technique becomes more important, but of course that's true since the internal level is the same. It can be seen that technique is completely useless when Xu Zhu fought JMZ at Shaolin, as Xu Zhu trumped the internal of this great level fighter; it's all relative, there is no magic Great level.
    I would classify characters such as Sweeper or XZ as beyond Great levels.

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