Would any wulin man choose the Qwai Fa Bo Deen if other elite skills were available?

[ChronoReverse]

Yeah...


First. LYT dominated and shocked wulin. Enough to build the reputation of his escort company. Enough that wulin was still lusting for his power two generations later. I'd say that's pretty good.


Second. We have every evidence that any sharp weaponry can injure even someone with extreme internal energy. Supreme internal energy has been shown to reduce fatal damage to merely severe damage, but it required specific techniques to actually stop a blade.


Third. PXJF's power was never brought into this. The point was that you could get close, stab the person and get out without being countered because of the extreme speed. However, its power is rather significant since we know that DFBB's internal energy was significantly higher than LHC's (from the shock LHC felt) and probably even RWX's (because RWX pushed so hard that he was breathing harder while DFBB's breathing was still casual).

[PJ]

I wouldn't say it was weird movement. Rather, it was weird how the attacking movement got in when it really shouldn't have.

I didn't say weird movement. I said weird technique, which is a broad category; there are many ways technique can be weird. While you stripped it down to the bones, at the high level what it is is a case of 'weird technique'.

The closest thing to it would be the Persian Ming Cult messengers' techniques.

[ChronoReverse]

That's the thing, it's not the same.

The Persian technique was weird because it did things like using body parts you don't normal use. Or do turn around attacks where normally one can't.


PXJF doesn't do that. It just arrives when you don't expect it. There's no trickery except to hide the speed.

[Ren Wo Xing]

That's the thing, it's not the same.

The Persian technique was weird because it did things like using body parts you don't normal use. Or do turn around attacks where normally one can't.


PXJF doesn't do that. It just arrives when you don't expect it. There's no trickery except to hide the speed.

Exactly; for example, LPZ points the sword towards Yu Canghai, then suddenly, in a flash, turns around and kills several of his disciples with it instead. There's nothing 'weird' about the technique save for its speed.

[HuntingX]

Building an escort company is hardly some monumental achievement. Remember the escort company in HSDS?

Yes, he "shook" Wulin, but so did MCF and various 3rd or 4th tier baddies. There's no evidence he's significantly higher than them (judging exclusively from what his reputation is).

And, "supreme" internal energy CAN block out damage on an absolute scale. For instances, see XZ blocking weapons with no techniques, or Sweeps tanking XL18Z with no technique, etc.

Finally, we don't know that RWX had weaker internal power than DFBB; we just know that he couldn't suck its power. The oftmentioned needle might actually prove the advantage for the freak in this battle, since it can help negate the sucking power of XXDF.

It's MUCH more likely that RWX is breathing hard due to his speed being on a different plane of existence than DFBB.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Yes, he "shook" Wulin, but so did MCF and various 3rd or 4th tier baddies. There's no evidence he's significantly higher than them (judging exclusively from what his reputation is).

1) He had better comprehension of a martial arts which propelled DFBB to unbeatable (within XAJH) level than DFBB itself did,

2) His personal reputation was so far above that of the leader of Qingcheng sect, a school that was just below the Five Swords Sects in reputation (which in turn was just below Shaolin) that it wasn't even considered a loss of face for the latter when he lost to Lin Yuantu,

3) His martial arts legacy was coveted by everyone in the wulin, from orthodox to heterodox, save for the highest of elites, ie Fang Zheng, DFBB, Ren Woxing, etc. etc. Everyone else, from Yue Buqun to Zuo Lengchan, desired it.

I think that's an extremely solid reputation.

And, "supreme" internal energy CAN block out damage on an absolute scale. For instances, see XZ blocking weapons with no techniques, or Sweeps tanking XL18Z with no technique, etc.

There is a significant difference between tanking 'kinetic' damage, and tanking 'piercing' damage in Wuxia; Zhang Wuji is the classic example. He can tank multiple palms from leaders of various sects with no problems at all, and yet was badly injured by an extremely weak Zhou Zhirou with her sword. Likewise, Mei Chaofeng was at first totally immune to the weapons of the Freaks, save for Han Xiaoying's sword, which she was wary of; we also know that Han Xiaoying's martial arts was arguably the weakest.

The only person in all of Jinyong who displayed any ability to take on a piercing attack was Xu Zhu, who absorbed the full internal energies of three ultimate fighters, and even then, his protection wasn't perfect.

Finally, we don't know that RWX had weaker internal power than DFBB; we just know that he couldn't suck its power. The oftmentioned needle might actually prove the advantage for the freak in this battle, since it can help negate the sucking power of XXDF.

It's MUCH more likely that RWX is breathing hard due to his speed being on a different plane of existence than DFBB.

Arguable, but considering DFBB was able to easily block his sword with its needle, I'm much more inclined to say that its internal energy was at least somewhat above that of RWX's...which is no small feat.

[PJ]

PXJF doesn't do that. It just arrives when you don't expect it. There's no trickery except to hide the speed.

That's exactly what the Persian kung fu does too:

数合之后，辉月使一令打来，依照武学的道理，这一招必须打在张无忌左颊，哪知圣火令在半途古古怪怪的转了个弯，拍的一响，竟打中在他后 颈。

[HuntingX]

I think it is clear that Lin Yuantu is higher tier than the 5 school alliance, which is considerably lower than Shaolin/Wudang. To say that they are "just" below implies a similar level of martial arts; I would argue that FZ could thrash anyone the 5 schools sent out.

Further, the Qingcheng sect leader was horribly angry at the loss and it eventually caused his premature death. If he was massively outclassed, would he really feel so bad? I always felt that the worst defeats are ones that are relatively close. If it's a total curbstomp, why should he feel so terrible? This led me to believe that while Lin Yuantu is certainly strong, he's no DFBB.

The other big issue of contention is the relative importance of KHBD.

DFBB was invincible BEFORE it learned KHBD. This is often overlooked. Prior to becoming a full fledged freakazoid, he was already the #1 fighter under heaven. He had NEVER lost a fight, with or without KHBD. So maybe KHBD just amplified his already existing (and very profound) marital arts.

Consider it like this:

KHBD is similar to 9Yang. It's a speed source, but needs a conduit for its use. Lin Yuantu ONLY knew this martial art, and had no real attack formula besides the "weirdness" as you pointed out. He actually hurt the real power of the art by adding all these weird moves.

DFBB had an outstanding MA basis before learning KHBD. Then after learning, it was able to use the raw speed in its own base MA, making it extremely powerful. Lin Yuantu, on the other hand, diluted the power of the art by adding weird/useless moves.

So as a speed buff, PXJ/KHBD is unparalleled. As an actual attack art, it's not obviously useful.

And given the manner in which BMSG works (most imba move ever), I would venture to say any RPG player realizes how ridiculous it is.

It's a snowball. First snag 1, then second becomes easier. Snag 2, 3rd is easier. At some point, fight and beat a good internal guy, then you can snag even more.

And more and more and more. Eventually, you turn into XZ. Then you go and challenge Sweeps

[ChronoReverse]

PJ, you're just leaving out other aspects of the Persians. It's still different from PXJF because it's the acceleration of the technique that's surprises (even if the acceleration is hidden). Unlike the Persian kungfu, the receivers could see the strokes and even copy it perfectly. Which didn't matter at all since the strokes weren't particularly weird.

@huntingx

You gotta stop pulling things out of nowhere.

How could DFBB be DFBB before he got KHBD? RWX gave it to DFBB. Is it possible for DFBB to be called DFBB while RWX is still around?

As for LYT vs QC leader, we've already addressed it a bajillion times right here. LYT was HIDING HIS FULL POTENTIAL. To the entire wulin, it appeared that he was invincible with crappy techniques. His opponents could see and even copy what his attacks were yet completely unable to replicate the power. This also neatly explains why the QC leader got so frustrated because he simply couldn't believe such crappy (looking) techniques utterly crushed him.

[PJ]

Exactly; for example, LPZ points the sword towards Yu Canghai, then suddenly, in a flash, turns around and kills several of his disciples with it instead. There's nothing 'weird' about the technique save for its speed.

Yeah, and that's completely different from the Persian aiming at Zhang Wuji's left cheek, then suddenly, in a flash, turns away to attack his back neck.

[PJ]

PJ, you're just leaving out other aspects of the Persians. It's still different from PXJF because it's the acceleration of the technique that's surprises (even if the acceleration is hidden). Unlike the Persian kungfu, the receivers could see the strokes and even copy it perfectly. Which didn't matter at all since the strokes weren't particularly weird.

And you can't copy the moves of the Persian kung fu? Zhang Wuji did not do that?

Both rely on the element of surprise, and that's one thing they got in common.

[ChronoReverse]

The issue isn't whether it can be copied or not. The issue is the effectiveness. You can have PXJF technique down pat perfect and it'd still be useless. The Persian kungfu would allow you to at least land strikes even if you don't have the needle internal energy trained.


Can't you see the difference between a sudden attack from a blind angle as compared to an attack you can see is coming, you know how it's coming and yet it still hits the target you know it was going for? PXJF can do that.


Once ZWJ learned the Persian technique would he be vulnerable to it? Would he be able to use it? The answers are no and yes.

If ZWJ learned PXJF technique would he be vulnerable to it (full power)? Would he be able to use it (properly)? The answers are yes and no.


Even LHC, with the epitome of countering martial arts was barely able to deal with PXJF. He was unable to deal with someone who actually practiced the deal for longer. ZWJ would easily learn the strokes, but if he actually tried using it, he'd find that there's no real power behind it either. Sure he could attach lots of internal energy to it, but it wouldn't make it any stronger than any other random sword technique with lots of internal energy attached.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Even LHC, with the epitome of countering martial arts was barely able to deal with PXJF. He was unable to deal with someone who actually practiced the deal for longer.

Exactly. LHC, perhaps the best main character at actually countering martial arts, actually saw the flaws within DFBB's movements, but it made no difference, because DFBB was too fast.

What made the Shenghuo Ling martial arts dangerous was the weirdness and unpredictable variations. What made BXJF dangerous was the incredible speed, which was used to execute attacks that no one thought possible (hence, 'weird'). Weirdness was the driving factor in the former; speed, masked by weirdness, in the latter. The moves of BXJF are total crap, and intentionally so. The speed was the true lethality.

[HuntingX]

DFBB became DFBB BEFORE KHBD. This much is clear.

DFBB took down RWX, and IMMEDIATELY became the #1.

He didn't train KHBD (extensively) at this point. ALL his martial arts were from his original school (which I assume is S/M sect). The ONLY exposure the rest of Wulin saw of DFBB was PRE-KHBD since his KHBD was a HUGE SHOCK to everyone.

Thus it is not at all speculation that he was #1 under heaven BEFORE KHBD.

As far as Yu hiding his skills, you can argue that, or just argue he doesn't have the ability to begin with.

Seeing as we have no textual evidence whatsoever, I can't imagine you can draw a conclusion either way.

[the.raven]

This gives me a crazy idea. PXJF needs castration because otherwise the energy build up would cause fire deviation. YJJ allows one to manipulate the body such that even the tendons could be changed. What if someone who mastered YJJ, "disconnected" the requisite body parts while training PXJF? Fire deviation would be avoid without having to resort to a more permanent "disconnection". I wonder what the effects would be like...

using YJJ to manipulate the testicles? LMAO.

[CC]

This gives me a crazy idea. PXJF needs castration because otherwise the energy build up would cause fire deviation. YJJ allows one to manipulate the body such that even the tendons could be changed. What if someone who mastered YJJ, "disconnected" the requisite body parts while training PXJF? Fire deviation would be avoid without having to resort to a more permanent "disconnection". I wonder what the effects would be like....

Been speculated before. YJJ and Bei Ming seems to be able to merge different energy streams. So either one could possibly tame the Bi Xie/Kui Hua energies. You don't even need to disconnect your nuts.

[CC]

Thus it is not at all speculation that he was #1 under heaven BEFORE KHBD.

If he was so undefeatable all his life, why did he have to thank Hall Leader Tong for saving his life in the past eh?

[deccan]

There is a big distinction between speed and power.

In the real world, speed = power (kinetic energy = 1/2 mv^2, m is constant).

In the MA universe, this is simply not true. When HR fought GJ, H7G told GJ NOT to worry about HR's weird dancing palms, and just blast through. The speed of his palm is not amazing, but the power behind them was much stronger.

There are other examples of "slow" palms being quite devastating. Note the soundless palm of GJ vs MCF. The impact didn't seem to change at all, despite the lower speed.

So if speed is completely separate from power, it is possible that even with "max speed" KHBD is still far inferior to the super MA from DGSD.

The physics formula isn't really true in this case because unlike say, a bullet, which has all of its kinetic energy imparted to it at the moment the gun shoots, a martial artist should be continually imparting energy into his fist or feet or whatever, from the moment he starts the attack, when the attack moves through the air, and even after it hits the opponent.

For a good power vs. speed analogy, maybe think of zippy speedboats vs. powerful tugboats. Both are rather small, but the speedboats are fast and capable of running rings around ships, while the tugboats are slow but are powerful enough to tow ships far larger than itself.

[wuyuejin]

Dongfang could deflect Linghu Chong's sword with a tiny needle so his internal power must be super high. If the weapon he was using had been a long sword, all the other 4 people would've been dead meat.

[jadebunny9]

With so many male members actively engaged in discussing this topic like this, I don't think we should be left with a doubt how popular KHBD is.