Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: The Dragon Sabre and the Heaven Sword as embodiments of Gwok Jing and Wong Yung

  1. #1
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    22,966

    Default The Dragon Sabre and the Heaven Sword as embodiments of Gwok Jing and Wong Yung

    On an obvious, literal level, we are all aware that the Dragon Sabre and the Heaven Sword represented the legacy of Gwok Jing and Wong Yung to the generations of wulin heroes that came after them. But were the two weapons also embodiments of their presence in a more metaphorical way? Allow me to explain.

    During his lifetime, Gwok Jing was known as a man of plain-spoken, unyielding integrity and strength...and a fervent patriot and warrior. These characteristics seem to be embodied by the Dragon Sabre: it was not a delicate-looking weapon. It was large, bold, durable, and powerful. Moreover, in its heart it contained General Ngok Fei's Mo Muk War Tactics Manual - a text that seemingly represented Gwok Jing's very persona (and that he used in warfare against the Jin Empire and the Mongol Empire during his lifetime). Finally, note the name of the weapon: the Dragon-Slaying Sabre. Remember what Gwok Jing's primary martial art was during his lifetime: the Dragon-Subduing 18 Palms (Hong Lung 18 Palms). Finally, notice that the Dragon Sabre (as far as we know) was primarily possesed/wielded by men (i.e. Gwok Por Lo, its unknown custodians at the beginning of HSDS, Yu Doi Nam, Tse Tsun). The Dragon Sabre seemed to embody the spirit of its maker.

    Similarly, the Heaven Sword seemed to embody Wong Yung's spirit. It appeared delicate, but was extremely sharp (and although it doesn't translate in Chinese the way it does for English, don't forget that "sharpness" refers to great intelligence). The weapon was called the "Heaven Sword"; I believe there is a phrase in Chinese, "as all-knowing as Heaven," to describe extremely intelligent people such as Wong Yung. Within the Heaven Sword as the 9 Yum Jen Ging, a text that had profoundly influenced Wong Yung's life from before her birth (her mother died attempting to produce a second copy of it for East Heretic Wong Yerk See), and of course this text would profoundly influence her adult life (and those of many of the people associated with Peach Blossom Island) as well. After Wong Yung's death, the Heaven Sword remained in the custody of women (her daughter Gwok Seung and the three Ngor Mei Sect Leaders who followed her). Just as the Dragon Sabre had embodied Gwok Jing's spirit, the Heaven Sword seemed to embody the spirit of Wong Yung.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Radken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    花果山水濂洞
    Posts
    1,733

    Default

    I always wondered why Gwok Jing made a dao. I don't think he has ever used one in LOCH and have any techniques where he has to use a dao. Would have been more cooler if he created a bow. You know, Gwok Jing, "straight as an arrow".

  3. #3
    Senior Member dewyloony123's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    四海為家 (ok, not really; I'm not homeless)
    Posts
    403

    Default

    Side comment: Doesn't "Yi Tian" mean something along the lines of "supporting heaven?" I'm sure "Tu Long" means "dragon slaying" (something along those lines).

    Do some literary analysis on that! (I'd do it if I had more time...)
    ZOMG I'm back! Did ya miss me? (yeah, probably didn't...)


    I heard there was a secret chord
    That David played, and it pleased the Lord.

  4. #4
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    22,966

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dewyloony123 View Post
    Side comment: Doesn't "Yi Tian" mean something along the lines of "supporting heaven?" I'm sure "Tu Long" means "dragon slaying" (something along those lines).
    That's one of the things I'm getting at. It seems more than merely coincidental that this "Dragonslaying Sabre" was created by a warrior known for his "Dragon-Subduing Palms."

    It almost seems that after Gwok Jing and Wong Yung perished as flesh-and-blood individuals at Seung Yeung Fortress, their spirits lived on within the two weapons they created.

  5. #5
    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    绿柳山庄
    Posts
    2,707

    Default

    I think it does represent the lives and nature of Guo Jing and Huang Rong and their legacy.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,530

    Default

    I would say no. The manuals inside the weapons were embodiments of Guo Jing and Huang Rong. But the weapons themselves were representative of Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu.

  7. #7
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    22,966

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    I would say no. The manuals inside the weapons were embodiments of Guo Jing and Huang Rong. But the weapons themselves were representative of Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu.


    You're going to have to explain that one, Dennis, because I can't fathom it at all.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    563

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post


    You're going to have to explain that one, Dennis, because I can't fathom it at all.
    Probably because the HIS was melted to create the two??

  9. #9
    Senior Member HuangYushi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Under a pile of work ....
    Posts
    1,633

    Default

    倚天屠龙记 refers to a record (documentation) [记] of the acts of relying on the Heavens [倚天] for the slaughter of the Dragon (Mongol conquerors) [屠龙]. This is the overall theme of the novel.
    Jin Yong's Ode to Gallantry [侠客行].
    Quote Originally Posted by atlantean0208
    what about SPT, I need my SPT fix ASAP, pretty pleaseeeee...
    Soon ... SOON!

  10. #10
    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    3,943

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    On an obvious, literal level, we are all aware that the Dragon Sabre and the Heaven Sword represented the legacy of Gwok Jing and Wong Yung to the generations of wulin heroes that came after them. But were the two weapons also embodiments of their presence in a more metaphorical way? Allow me to explain.

    During his lifetime, Gwok Jing was known as a man of plain-spoken, unyielding integrity and strength...and a fervent patriot and warrior. These characteristics seem to be embodied by the Dragon Sabre: it was not a delicate-looking weapon. It was large, bold, durable, and powerful. Moreover, in its heart it contained General Ngok Fei's Mo Muk War Tactics Manual - a text that seemingly represented Gwok Jing's very persona (and that he used in warfare against the Jin Empire and the Mongol Empire during his lifetime). Finally, note the name of the weapon: the Dragon-Slaying Sabre. Remember what Gwok Jing's primary martial art was during his lifetime: the Dragon-Subduing 18 Palms (Hong Lung 18 Palms). Finally, notice that the Dragon Sabre (as far as we know) was primarily possesed/wielded by men (i.e. Gwok Por Lo, its unknown custodians at the beginning of HSDS, Yu Doi Nam, Tse Tsun). The Dragon Sabre seemed to embody the spirit of its maker.

    Similarly, the Heaven Sword seemed to embody Wong Yung's spirit. It appeared delicate, but was extremely sharp (and although it doesn't translate in Chinese the way it does for English, don't forget that "sharpness" refers to great intelligence). The weapon was called the "Heaven Sword"; I believe there is a phrase in Chinese, "as all-knowing as Heaven," to describe extremely intelligent people such as Wong Yung. Within the Heaven Sword as the 9 Yum Jen Ging, a text that had profoundly influenced Wong Yung's life from before her birth (her mother died attempting to produce a second copy of it for East Heretic Wong Yerk See), and of course this text would profoundly influence her adult life (and those of many of the people associated with Peach Blossom Island) as well. After Wong Yung's death, the Heaven Sword remained in the custody of women (her daughter Gwok Seung and the three Ngor Mei Sect Leaders who followed her). Just as the Dragon Sabre had embodied Gwok Jing's spirit, the Heaven Sword seemed to embody the spirit of Wong Yung.
    GJ was also handed a task of slaying his father's killer since his birth - who happened to be WYHL a dragon of the Jin empire. In some sense, he did end up slaying the dragon via his campaign with the Mongols.

    However YG slayed a proper dragon too.

    Also, I thought the war manual was suppose to be in the Heaven sword, whereas the martial art manuals were in Dragon sabre, ie the heaven sword holder become the emperor, but the dragon sabre hold can slay him if he goes astray. But that's moot point anyway with 3rd edition changes.
    Member of HYS fanclub -> click here to join group.

    Member of TC fanclub.

  11. #11
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    22,966

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yittz View Post
    Also, I thought the war manual was suppose to be in the Heaven sword, whereas the martial art manuals were in Dragon sabre, ie the heaven sword holder become the emperor, but the dragon sabre hold can slay him if he goes astray. But that's moot point anyway with 3rd edition changes.
    As I understand it, in the first edition, the Heaven Sword contained the 9 Yum Jen Ging and the Dragon Sabre contained the Mo Muk War Tactics Manual. In the second edition, the Heaven Sword contained *all* of Gwok Jing's martial arts knowledge in written form (including the Hong Lung 18 Palms as well as the 9 Yum Jen Ging) while the Dragon Sabre still contained the Mo Muk War Tactics Manual. In the third and current edition, the weapons hold no manuals at all, but provide the location of the manuals (Peach Blossom Island) and instructions for how to retrieve them.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    4,215

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HuangYushi View Post
    倚天屠龙记 refers to a record (documentation) [记] of the acts of relying on the Heavens [倚天] for the slaughter of the Dragon (Mongol conquerors) [屠龙]. This is the overall theme of the novel.
    The term '倚天' means very tall, which doesn't make much sense for the story. Your explanation makes more sense, so perhaps the 'yi tian' in the context of the book is actually '倚' + '天' (with support of the heavens) instead of '倚天' if that makes any sense.

    Btw, does anyone know of any technology or method that makes keeping written records inside metal weapons is actually possible in the real world? We know that DGQB/YG's sword probably required very hot temperatures to melt. What material were accessible to blacksmiths at that time (or currently) that can serve as insulation/protection for the 9 Yin manual and Yue Fei's manual?
    This account is retired.

  13. #13
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    22,966

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfox2002 View Post
    The term '倚天' means very tall, which doesn't make much sense for the story. Your explanation makes more sense, so perhaps the 'yi tian' in the context of the book is actually '倚' + '天' (with support of the heavens) instead of '倚天' if that makes any sense.

    Btw, does anyone know of any technology or method that makes keeping written records inside metal weapons is actually possible in the real world? We know that DGQB/YG's sword probably required very hot temperatures to melt. What material were accessible to blacksmiths at that time (or currently) that can serve as insulation/protection for the 9 Yin manual and Yue Fei's manual?
    I think that the inability to find a plausible explanation that would satisfy today's more skeptical and cynical readers is one of the reasons that Jin Yong decided to not place the manuals directly inside the weapons in the third edition.

  14. #14
    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,286

    Default

    I have to agree with Dennis. I see the two more comparable to YG and XLN.

    Quote Originally Posted by shortsight View Post
    Probably because the HIS was melted to create the two??
    In the later revision, the HIS was made into to TuLong Dao, while XLN's two swords were made into YiTian Jian.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 42
    Last Post: 12-09-10, 04:33 PM
  2. Wong Yung created the heavenly sword and dragon sabre??
    By BostonTVBfan in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-14-06, 11:13 AM
  3. Heaven Sword and Dragon Sabre translations
    By byelnats in forum Wuxia Translations
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 01-14-06, 03:56 AM
  4. The Heaven Sword vs. the Dragon Sabre
    By Ken Cheng in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-23-05, 06:11 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •