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Thread: Why did Ming and Song fail?

  1. #21
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    I don't think we can compare the U.S. to China. China has been around for thousands of years while the U.S. is the newest country compared to most countries, people didn't really know about this piece of land until Christopher Columbus.

    However I don't think democracy is working either because some people don't make well informed decision when voting for the nation's leaders. High school graduation rates in the U.S. is low, some people who didn't get education still vote and they pick people who may not be qualify. We got people voting base on looks, and people can't see that lots of candidates try to market themselves to a targeted group of people by addressing one or two issue that group is concern about.

  2. #22
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    You just can't compare dynasty in ancient society to modern democratic countries. Ancient dynasty will never last because throne is passing down from one family and the ruler can do whatever he wanted even if it is against the law. On the other hand, in democratic society, we elect our own leader and there is balance of power which I believe is crutially important. Country like the US may get poorer, the standard of living may go down, ect...., but the country will never fall like those ancient dynasty....
    No constitutional republic such as the U.S.'s has lasted long enough (yet) for us to really make this comparison. The average Chinese dynasty lasted around three-hundred years...an entire century more than the U.S. has lasted so far. In Europe, Asia, Africa, and the Pacific, there is no constitutional republic that has lasted as long as three-hundred years yet. Most of today's democratic governments, in fact, have been around less than a century.

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    Actually... no. I don't know about Ming, but I don't think that Song would fall to the Mongols if their emperor and top-ranking officers were not that corrupt and incompetent. If they had someone like Liu Bang , Sun Wu, and Yue Fei leading the empire and commanding the army, the Mongols would be stopped, or even annihilated.

    Ming? Well, Zhu Yuanzhang was a little bit tyrannical when he led the empire, I don't think the latter emperors would be better, but then again, I don't know much about Ming.

    But those two dinasties outlasted Qin, and that's for sure. Qin has the shortest reign, compared to all other dinasties.
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    The Qin never got established. Qin Shi Huang just didn't know when to be compassionate and when to be coercive. To quote a cliche, when you back a rat into a corner, it will bite. A brutal reign like that cannot last, especially when he had just conquered many different states and still didn't have a stronghold on the unified country yet.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    Why did dynasties fail?

    Simple, the reasons are always weak emperor, corrupt officials, meddling eunuchs, distracting mistresses, lousy armies. (on their own or a combination of the above reasons).

    My old essay about eunuch history have some points about the end of ming and song dynasty.

    http://wuxiapedia.com/research/socie...hinese_eunuchs

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    I'm still uncomfortable with the use of the word "fail" in this context. "Fail" implies that an intended goal was not reached. What was the goal here? That the Sung and Ming Dynasties were to last forever? The people who ruled and lived in these dynasties probably hoped for such a thing, but that hope was never realistic even under the best of conditions. Governments, being the products of people, are organic. All organic things go through life cycles: birth, growth, maturity, aging, and death. It's the natural order of things. When we die, we don't "fail" at life; we've completed life - a natural and universal phenomenon.

    Three-hundred years is a very long time for a government system to endure. Not a single country on Earth is currently ruled by the same government system that ruled it three-hundred years ago. In light of this, I think we should be more impressed by the longevity of these old Chinese dynasties than mourn their "failure." All governments should be such "failures."

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    Hmm...

    I think Ken's right. Perhaps "fall" is a more suitable term than "fail".

    Then again, some reigns DO "fail". Flyingfox was right that the Qin dynasty was never established. One person could not make a "dynasty", because the general acceptable definition of a dynasty is a reign which lasts for a few generations. This means that a reign should has more than one (at least two) leaders to make a dynasty. Qin only had one. Why? Because the people hates Shihuang. The reason? For being a inconsiderate warmonger.
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    Comment deleted.
    Last edited by chibidaisuke; 11-21-10 at 06:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chibidaisuke View Post
    Despite that being a characteristic of Confucianism, China was still the world's most advanced civilization during pre-modern times.
    Define pre-modern?

    Arguments can be made that even by Song dynasty that China was no longer as superior technologically relatively to other civilizations apart from a brief burst of advances in Ming dynasty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss
    I think they're probably at the same level as or one level below Ah Qing, which is about the level of a 2nd or 3rd generation Quan Zhen disciple.
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    Comment deleted.
    Last edited by chibidaisuke; 11-21-10 at 06:06 AM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifeburner View Post
    Hmm...

    I think Ken's right. Perhaps "fall" is a more suitable term than "fail".

    Then again, some reigns DO "fail". Flyingfox was right that the Qin dynasty was never established. One person could not make a "dynasty", because the general acceptable definition of a dynasty is a reign which lasts for a few generations. This means that a reign should has more than one (at least two) leaders to make a dynasty. Qin only had one. Why? Because the people hates Shihuang. The reason? For being a inconsiderate warmonger.
    well, technically there are 2 more emperors succeeding qin shihuang actually, although both are pretty useless.

    the first was his useless son whos more of a puppet to eunuch zhao-gao, leading the country into more crap than ever. after he was forced to commit suicide by zhao gao, and the throne goes to another relation of qin shihuang, but like the second emperor, he did not rule long, before a civil war broke out.

    so going by your definition of 'dynasty', Qin does qualify...even if the successors of Qin Shihuang ruled for a remarkably short period of time.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucre View Post
    well, technically there are 2 more emperors succeeding qin shihuang actually, although both are pretty useless.

    the first was his useless son whos more of a puppet to eunuch zhao-gao, leading the country into more crap than ever. after he was forced to commit suicide by zhao gao, and the throne goes to another relation of qin shihuang, but like the second emperor, he did not rule long, before a civil war broke out.

    so going by your definition of 'dynasty', Qin does qualify...even if the successors of Qin Shihuang ruled for a remarkably short period of time.
    I do wonder how the Qin would have coped had Fu Shu taken the throne instead of Hu Hai. Fu Shu seemed quite a noble chap, and had the support of good generals. He was also courageous and quite willing to take his own life when commanded. Of course the anti-Qin sentiment was already pretty strong even before Fu Shu died, but he might have coped better, and salvaged a portion of China for his family's dynasty, perhaps.

    I'm not sure what kind of details Sugar wants on the fall of the Song and Ming, but if you really want to go into minor details:-

    Northern Song fell when the Jins, allied with the Song against the Liao and Xixia, saw how weak the Song were during the war, and decided it was pointless working with them when they could just take the whole place. They goaded the Song to start some argument and then invaded China, took Kaifeng and kidnapped the retired Huizong and the current emperor Qinzong. They didn't advance further south because they didn't have the manpower to hold the north and invade the south - China was too big. Gaozong reconsolidated the Song in the south for another hundred-odd years through the age-old song strategy - diplomacy.

    iirc, Southern Song fell when the Mongols invaded after conquering Jin, and were held off at the Xiangyang-Fancheng bottleneck. Both cities supported each other, but eventually the Mongols took the river which linked them together, and also went round China to conquer Dali, launching an attack from the other direction against China. Cut off from Xiangyang, Fancheng fell, and Xiangyang, and the rest of China including Linan, shortly followed. The Song held court at sea for a short while, but it was a matter of time before the Yuan built their navy.

    The Ming fell when Li Zicheng raised a rebellion within China and broke through Beijing's defences while most of the Ming army was stationed at Shanhaiguan facing off with the Manchus. The last Ming Emperor, Chongzhen, hanged himself. Li established the Dashun dynasty for a month or so, before choosing to attack the unwilling-to-surrender Wu Sangui (Wu, loyal to Chongzhen, refused to surrender to rebels) at Shanhaiguan from behind. The Manchus saw the opportunity, made Wu an offer to "assist the Ming in surpressing the rebellion" and Wu opened the gates of Shanhaiguan to let the Manchus in. Wu was under no illusions that the Manchus were going to leave China once the Dashun was crushed, though, and sure enough, Shunzhi took the throne, and Wu himself assisted the Qing in persecuting the Ming royal family and crushing the southern Ming resistance over the next few decades.

  13. #33
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    Ian Liew: If Fusu really was as competent and reasonable as Sima Qian describes him, he might have succeeded in solidifying the Ying clan's rule, though a lot of damage had already been done.
    But maybe the empire really needed a reboot.
    Qin basically did all the dirty work and they deserve all the credit they get and more (and I think they don't deserve all the bad press they get) but I guess the damage was so substantial and the grievances so many, that a new guy had to come, take the Qin system, brush it up and upgrade it a little, start anew and steer the country in a new direction.

    Even a competent guy like Fusu might find himself pushed into the corner and unable to clean up the mess that some of Li Si's and Qin Shihuang's policies had caused.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    I do wonder how the Qin would have coped had Fu Shu taken the throne instead of Hu Hai. Fu Shu seemed quite a noble chap, and had the support of good generals. He was also courageous and quite willing to take his own life when commanded. Of course the anti-Qin sentiment was already pretty strong even before Fu Shu died, but he might have coped better, and salvaged a portion of China for his family's dynasty, perhaps.
    Well, maybe Qin Shihuang was just getting senile as he aged? After all king -> emperor was quite a leap ~ things aren't quite the same, and despite all his 'skills' he has his weaknesses, and whilst as a mere civilian, weaknesses that are far worse than his usually have zero impact on others so nobody remembers, the wrongs he did resulted in direct negative consequences. Of course im just yakking, I'm not a historian and hence do not have strong basis of evidence to support my opinions.

    As for Fusu, at least he would be a better choice as Emperor than Huhai, but 'useless' as I would refer to Huhai, to be fair, he did what most people would do in modern corporate world. Meekly accept, obey, just so as to have the least trouble and pain to go through.

    There was even a game created called "Prince of Qin" based loosely on Fusu, the situation of 'what-if' (he hadn't died blahblah...) In any case Fusu was most likely his eldest kid, and hence by then reasonably an adult (at the prime of mental capabilities ~ old enough to gain wisdom, young enough to have the energy level before becoming senile) and thinking far more thoroughly than what Huhai was capable of. Secondly, as a 'default' crown prince, he's likely take it upon himself to learn how to rule because someday he envisioned he would need to sit on that throne. There's alot of preparation for that.

    As for suicide ~ who knows whether it was out of courage, or out of losing total hope? Imagine if the court is so corrupt enough to actually have others to impersonate the emperors orders, then he would possibly lost all hope in restoring this place. It might have been the last draw that he do it out of that moment's despair. (besides, if he didn't obey....did he really think he can get away from it?)
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cesare View Post
    Ian Liew: If Fusu really was as competent and reasonable as Sima Qian describes him, he might have succeeded in solidifying the Ying clan's rule, though a lot of damage had already been done.
    But maybe the empire really needed a reboot.
    Qin basically did all the dirty work and they deserve all the credit they get and more (and I think they don't deserve all the bad press they get) but I guess the damage was so substantial and the grievances so many, that a new guy had to come, take the Qin system, brush it up and upgrade it a little, start anew and steer the country in a new direction.

    Even a competent guy like Fusu might find himself pushed into the corner and unable to clean up the mess that some of Li Si's and Qin Shihuang's policies had caused.
    they set an example so that the future will learn from their mistakes.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucre View Post
    they set an example so that the future will learn from their mistakes.
    Not only mistakes. Chinese imperial system at its core basically *is* Qin system, with some upgrades introduced in han period and later.
    Qin dynasty was a flawed one and Qin Shihuang made some rather ill-advised choices and decisions, but he did a lot of good work as well.
    Chinese empire stood on the foundation that Qin had built and it lasted long enough. You know what they say - 儒表法裡. Under the shiny Confucian coat it's good old pragmatic legalism.

    Prince of Qin is an awesome game, BTW. Played it so many times I lost count.

    As for the suicide - who knows if it WAS suicide. Sima Qian says so, but there's no reason why we should take everything old Sima says for granted. The whole Shaqiu plot reads like a drama and I suspect that a substantial portion of it was made up - it's difficult now to determine where the "real" stuff ends and fiction begins. You do find a lot of Han propaganda subtly woven into the fabric of that story. Maybe Fusu's story went through some considerable modifications, who knows...
    But if I decide to assume that Sima Qian's record of events is more or less correct and accurate, my guess is that Fusu gave it some thought and in the end decided that it's the least painful of all available choices...:-]
    Last edited by Cesare; 10-09-10 at 02:28 AM.
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    Li established the Dashun dynasty for a month or so, before choosing to attack the unwilling-to-surrender Wu Sangui (Wu, loyal to Chongzhen, refused to surrender to rebels) at Shanhaiguan from behind. The Manchus saw the opportunity, made Wu an offer to "assist the Ming in surpressing the rebellion" and Wu opened the gates of Shanhaiguan to let the Manchus in. Wu was under no illusions that the Manchus were going to leave China once the Dashun was crushed, though, and sure enough, Shunzhi took the throne, and Wu himself assisted the Qing in persecuting the Ming royal family and crushing the southern Ming resistance over the next few decades.
    He obviously wasn't as loyal as you said, considering the rest of the story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guo Xiang View Post
    He obviously wasn't as loyal as you said, considering the rest of the story.
    At that particular time he was fairly loyal, though, in his refusal to surrender. His wife, Chen Yuanyuan was gifted to him by Chongzhen. Li Zicheng beat up his family and captured his wife in Beijing, all the while trying to force him to surrender but he refused. It wasn't until Li Zicheng decided to attack his Ming army from behind that Dorgon approached him with a deal he couldn't possibly refuse. It's possible that if Li Zicheng had handled the situation more diplomatically and painted the Manchus, rather than the Ming remnants, as the main enemy, Wu might have ended up as a Dashun general.

    I've never really held it against him when he opened the gates of Shanhaiguan - he did not have any option other than to surrender to the Dashun, which was little more than a bunch of rebellious peasants occupying the throne in Beijing. It was his subsequent actions in crushing the Southern Ming which makes him a villain. He pursued the last Ming prince all the way to Burma and, so the legend goes, strangled him with his hunting bow and brought the head back to Dorgon, cementing Qing rule and ensuring the Ming would no longer have a figurehead to look to. I suppose one thing led to another once the Qing occupied Beijing and he just had to go along with it, and after a while he was rewarded so lavishly he started to enjoy it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cesare View Post
    my guess is that Fusu gave it some thought and in the end decided that it's the least painful of all available choices...:-]
    i thought so too; its not like he has any better choices considering his situation.

    though usually even if 'not everything' recorded is being absolutely accurate, the gist of it is still; it doesn't actually make a difference if he was murdered, suicide, or died in an accident.

    the fact is - he died. the reason of his death isn't really very important.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucre View Post
    the fact is - he died. the reason of his death isn't really very important.
    It is, I believe, almost as important as the fact that he died, as it is pretty tightly linked to the circumstances of Qin's downfall.
    In any case, it is an interesting thing to speculate about...
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