Could late ROCH Gwok Jing shoot down another Great with his arrows?

[Candide]

Not quite, Candide. Here's the excerpt.



Temujin made his shot, Ogedai made his shot, then Tolui made his shot. Then, it was stated that due to the height, the eagles had become very difficult to reach; nowhere was it stated, or even directly implied, that others in the army missed all of their shots.

Afterwards, the text specifically indicates that the reason he was a good shot was due to the outstanding strength and precision of his arm, gained from training with the Jiangnan Freaks; that, and Jebe instructed him how to shoot as well.

Thank you. That text clearly shows that Guo Jing was the better archer than most Mongolian generals except Jebe. Most of them could shoot the eagles down when they were flying low. When the eagles flew higher, the generals couldn't, despite Temujin's promise of a reward (you'd think that they'd be tripping over themselves trying to shoot a few down eh?).

I don't get what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. Do you mean that he's only a good archer because he's stronger and has better precision than others?

[ChronoReverse]

A Great should be able to avoid even GJ's arrows... however, if GJ had an unlimited supply of arrows and an unbreakable bow, there's no Great that would be able to approach GJ either.


@RWX
Not sure if that's what you intended but that paragraph you posted only shows GJ's prowess at shooting arrows.



Here's proof that the Greats can dodge for sure:

Guo Jing was around twenty feet away from the top of the city wall when a tall skinny monk appeared amongst the Mongolian army. He was wearing a yellow Buddhist gown; it was none other than Jinlun Fawang. He took a bow from one of the Mongolian soldiers and raised it. He knew that Guo Jing and Zhu Ziliu’s martial arts were high and would be able to avoid any arrows he shot at them so instead he aimed for the rope. It was a vicious move. The arrow was ten feet away from both Guo Jing and Zhu Ziliu; the two had no way to stop this arrow

An arrow from GWM using a Mongolian bow can be evaded even by someone of Zhu Ziliu's calibre. Sure he might be a good fighter, but he's still nowhere near Great level.

[Ken Cheng]

Here's proof that the Greats can dodge for sure:
An arrow from GWM using a Mongolian bow can be evaded even by someone of Zhu Ziliu's calibre. Sure he might be a good fighter, but he's still nowhere near Great level.

Was the Golden Wheel Monk as good an archer as Gwok Jing, however? Archery expertise was Gwok Jing's first claim to fame. The Golden Wheel Monk was only seen using a bow and arrow on that one occassion, and not particularly impressively at that.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Thank you. That text clearly shows that Guo Jing was the better archer than most Mongolian generals except Jebe. Most of them could shoot the eagles down when they were flying low. When the eagles flew higher, the generals couldn't, despite Temujin's promise of a reward (you'd think that they'd be tripping over themselves trying to shoot a few down eh?).

Again, this is completely unsupported by the text. 1) There was no mention of any Mongolian generals aside from Temujin and his sons who even made the attempt to shoot the eagles down at all, high or low. 2) There is no mention of any Mongolian generals who, after making that attempt, failed. 3) There is no mention of any Mongolian generals who tried but failed to get Temujin's award. You're treating the absence of information as information supporting your claim, when clearly that isn't the case.

I don't get what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. Do you mean that he's only a good archer because he's stronger and has better precision than others?

I'm saying that if you gave Guo Jing a spear, he could probably outfight any spearfighter in the Mongolian army with it, but that doesn't make him a better pikeman. And likewise, although his martial arts training gave him superior abilities which propelled his abilities in using a bow above that of many Mongolians, that there is very little indication that this was due to his actual skills in archery.

[Candide]

Again, this is completely unsupported by the text. 1) There was no mention of any Mongolian generals aside from Temujin and his sons who even made the attempt to shoot the eagles down at all, high or low. 2) There is no mention of any Mongolian generals who, after making that attempt, failed. 3) There is no mention of any Mongolian generals who tried but failed to get Temujin's award. You're treating the absence of information as information supporting your claim, when clearly that isn't the case.

It was a hunting party headed by Genghis Khan. It's traditional to have all the generals there.

I'm saying that if you gave Guo Jing a spear, he could probably outfight any spearfighter in the Mongolian army with it, but that doesn't make him a better pikeman. And likewise, although his martial arts training gave him superior abilities which propelled his abilities in using a bow above that of many Mongolians, that there is very little indication that this was due to his actual skills in archery.

What the hell? So he can beat all of them in a certain skill, yet it doesn't make him more skillful in that area? What kind of logic are you using, mate?

Keep in mind that at that stage, Guo Jing had not learned any inner energy art yet and had no inner power.

[shadow8899]

Obviously GJ's archery skills are among the best in Mongolia, at least in JY's mind or the story wouldn't be called "Legend of the Eagle SHOOTING Hero"

Given that, I don't think he could hit a great with an arrow.

[ChronoReverse]

Was the Golden Wheel Monk as good an archer as Gwok Jing, however? Archery expertise was Gwok Jing's first claim to fame. The Golden Wheel Monk was only seen using a bow and arrow on that one occassion, and not particularly impressively at that.

Why not impressive? He fired three quick arrows in succession, described by JY to have extremely forceful because of his high internal energy. He was also able to fire each of the three arrows at a particular target:

(1) At a rope 10 feet away from both Zhu Ziliu and GJ
(2) At Zhu Ziliu
(3) At Guo Jing

All three were right on target. All three were very forceful. He's not going to be as good as GJ obviously, but the point is that it would certainly be more than a normal soldier could manage.

I'm saying that if you gave Guo Jing a spear, he could probably outfight any spearfighter in the Mongolian army with it, but that doesn't make him a better pikeman. And likewise, although his martial arts training gave him superior abilities which propelled his abilities in using a bow above that of many Mongolians, that there is very little indication that this was due to his actual skills in archery.

By ROCH, sure. But this wouldn't be the case at the time he shot down the two birds.

[Ren Wo Xing]

It was a hunting party headed by Genghis Khan. It's traditional to have all the generals there.

Even presuming that was true, there was no indication that the generals were amongst those who were aiming at the eagles; there was also no textual indication that the generals failed to make the shot, assuming they even made the shot. You're making way too many assumptions.

What the hell? So he can beat all of them in a certain skill, yet it doesn't make him more skillful in that area? What kind of logic are you using, mate?

Again, as I gave the example earlier, Guo Jing never (as far as I knew) learned how to fight with a spear, but he could probably outfight any normal spear-wielding soldier in the army. Does that make him the best spear-fighter? Of course not!

Or let's say that I have x-ray vision that lets me see the cards in other people's hands. In that case, I'd never lose a poker game, ever! But does that make me the best poker player in the world? Of course not!

Being successful at something does not necessarily indicate that one is exceptionally good at something, if that success was derived from other factors. Which is what I am arguing here.

[Ren Wo Xing]

By ROCH, sure. But this wouldn't be the case at the time he shot down the two birds.

I found Jinyong's wording of that passage to be extremely of his feelings regarding GJ's archery skills. First, he was being directed by the best archer in the world; second, it was specifically stated that the reason he succeeded was due to his training with the Jiangnan freaks. At no point was his own skill in archery mentioned at all.

Was he a good archer? Indisputably. The best at archery in Mongolia? I really, really doubt that.

[flyingfox2002]

Given Gwok Jing's great inner power, wouldn't even the best-constructed bow fracture and disintegrate in his hands as he draws back the string to shoot? This could happen unless the bow were constructed from some exceptional alloy.

Perhaps this is where the concept of refinement comes into play...

Part of being a great martial artist is to be able to command his inner power, so GJ would be able to focus and manipulate his inner power in such a way to not break the bow.

-----

Candide, yes, I got the timeline mixed up a bit. GJ did not have inner power at that point. However, Ren Wo Xing is exactly right. His training from the 7 Freaks (whose kung fu skills were better than any of those in the Mongol camp) made him better at pretty much every physical activity than a "normal" human.

[Ken Cheng]

Again, as I gave the example earlier, Guo Jing never (as far as I knew) learned how to fight with a spear.

Spear-fighting should be on Gwok Jing's repertoire, as Gong Nam Freak Leader Ohr Jen Ngok's primary melee weapon was a walking staff that doubled as a spear. Ohr's spear skills were likely part of the package that Gwok Jing learned from the Gong Nam 7 Freaks during his youth in Mongolia.

[ChronoReverse]

Again, as I gave the example earlier, Guo Jing never (as far as I knew) learned how to fight with a spear, but he could probably outfight any normal spear-wielding soldier in the army. Does that make him the best spear-fighter? Of course not!

Say again?

Purely reflexes and strength might not let you beat an all-around good spear fighter. But if you've got the ability to improvise well with the spear as well as having the reflexes and strength to beat anyone else...

You ARE the best spear fighter.

You can, of course, say, "Not the best in spear technique." But that has precious little to do with "Best Spear Fighter." By definition, that's the strongest person using only the spear. And using the spear encompasses more than just spear technique.





Which really doesn't matter in the end because the act of shooting the 2 eagles out at once is clearly a special thing. Why bother to describe the eagles flying too high if that's not the point? Why bother with the reward from the Khan if that's not the point? What does it even matter that GJ was able to shoot better because of his training?

[Ren Wo Xing]

What does it even matter that GJ was able to shoot better because of his training?

Think about Zhang Wuji in YTTLJ. He could move faster, for longer periods of time, than virtually anyone; however, it would be nonsensical to say that Zhang Wuji was one of best qinggong practitioners in the Wulin. His abilities in speed were powered by his massive internal energy, and not qinggong in particular; in fact, I don't think he even learned qinggong at all!

The same goes for Guo Jing, except that he DID have some very real archery abilities; however, those archery abilities in and of himself aren't what made him so incredible with the bow, it was the martial arts training he had received.

It matters here because people seem to be suggesting that Guo Jing was a godly archer, and that, combined with his martial arts skills, might let him take on elite martial artists with the bow. I'm arguing that he was great at archery BECAUSE of his martial arts; take away the martial arts background (and possibly even Jebe's advice), and he would be a much poorer archer. Therefore, the entire idea that Guo Jing had godly archery abilities on top of his martial arts is nonsense; he had superb archery abilities BECAUSE of his martial arts. One was powered by the other.

[Candide]

Think about Zhang Wuji in YTTLJ. He could move faster, for longer periods of time, than virtually anyone; however, it would be nonsensical to say that Zhang Wuji was one of best qinggong practitioners in the Wulin. His abilities in speed were powered by his massive internal energy, and not qinggong in particular; in fact, I don't think he even learned qinggong at all!

ZWJ learned the Wudang qinggong.

Your analogy is wrong anyway because you're bringing inner energy into this.

The same goes for Guo Jing, except that he DID have some very real archery abilities; however, those archery abilities in and of himself aren't what made him so incredible with the bow, it was the martial arts training he had received.

It matters here because people seem to be suggesting that Guo Jing was a godly archer, and that, combined with his martial arts skills, might let him take on elite martial artists with the bow. I'm arguing that he was great at archery BECAUSE of his martial arts; take away the martial arts background (and possibly even Jebe's advice), and he would be a much poorer archer. Therefore, the entire idea that Guo Jing had godly archery abilities on top of his martial arts is nonsense; he had superb archery abilities BECAUSE of his martial arts. One was powered by the other.

WTF? Take away the training and every friggin' person would be a worse fighter! Jebe included. You think his archery skill came out of thin air?

This is what amazes me about people judging Guo Jing's MA abilities. On one hand they say that he totally sucked at MA, based on how terrible he was under Jiangnan freaks and how Hong Qigong constantly scolded him for being slow & stupid. On the other hand, when he excelled at something, they'd say that oh it doesn't count because he's had good training.

Make up your mind, ladies.

[ChronoReverse]

Think about Zhang Wuji in YTTLJ. He could move faster, for longer periods of time, than virtually anyone; however, it would be nonsensical to say that Zhang Wuji was one of best qinggong practitioners in the Wulin. His abilities in speed were powered by his massive internal energy, and not qinggong in particular; in fact, I don't think he even learned qinggong at all!

Qinggong isn't simply about running in a line fast for a long period of time, it's also about agility.

The Green Bat was _far_ faster than ZWJ in short ranges and way more agile. Of course internal energy will give you an edge in Qinggong, that's why internal energy is so important; it gives a boost to everything.

[flyingfox2002]

ZWJ learned the Wudang qinggong.

Your analogy is wrong anyway because you're bringing inner energy into this.



WTF? Take away the training and every friggin' person would be a worse fighter! Jebe included. You think his archery skill came out of thin air?

This is what amazes me about people judging Guo Jing's MA abilities. On one hand they say that he totally sucked at MA, based on how terrible he was under Jiangnan freaks and how Hong Qigong constantly scolded him for being slow & stupid. On the other hand, when he excelled at something, they'd say that oh it doesn't count because he's had good training.

Make up your mind, ladies.

I don't know who specifically these "people who judge GJ's skills" are. I don't come to the wuxia fiction section often. I don't see any of those "people" here in this thread. If anyone is stepping on both boats at the same time, then it would be wrong. However, I personally have never said GJ was bad at MA. I agree with RWX that his MA training is what made his archery skills head and shoulders above the rest of the Mongols because of superior strength.

Think analogously to steroid abusers in baseball. Sosa and McGwire once set the world on fire with their majestic homers, breaking Maris' 37 year old single season record for homeruns. However, steroid was the reason why they jumped from 40 homers a year to 60+. They were already good power hitters without the juice, but doing the juice made them elite among their peers.

You guys have to separate the archery training and the martial arts training. Note that GJ was able to shoot down the eagles because his increased strength is what allows him to shoot the arrows farther than a normal human, just like steroids made Sosa hit more homeruns than a typical power hitter.

[Ren Wo Xing]

flyingfox2002 exactly understands what I'm trying to say.

[Candide]

Steroid is cheating. Guo Jing's MA training isn't. It's still physical training. It's not something that normal people aren't capable of doing. If it were inner energy, I'd give you that, but it's not. There are people with no MA background who are a hell lot physically stronger than martial artists in wuxia. Ao Bai from DOMD is one of them. There are martial artists who would never reach Guo Jing's physical strength regardless of how much MA they do.

You guys don't make any sense. It's kinda like saying tennis player X has the most powerful, impossible to block volley among his peers only because he does natural weight training (which other guys don't do) and therefore has a much stronger arm, but really he isn't that good at volleys.

[ChronoReverse]

The baseball analogy doesn't even make sense. It's not even cheating in the major league baseball because the steroids aren't really considered cheating.

What you're doing is adding an arbitrary rule that the use of internal energy is cheating for no other reason but to support your argument.




EVEN SO, GJ at that point of the story didn't have enough internal energy to surpass mere physical strength.

[Candide]

Well I'd say inner energy gives him a kinda "unfair" advantage over others as they didn't have access to the methods. However at that point, Guo Jing had not had any inner energy training nor any in his body for that matter. It was pure physical strength training, which anyone could do.