What is the most overrated "thing" in Jin Yong novels?

[Extremer88]

They are often describe as powerful, impressive and untouchable. However, most of the time their portrayal in Jin Yong novels or lack of concrete facts often made us think - are they really that good, that godly, or are they just simply overrated, or just a load of crap?

Which of these "overrated things" do you feel is the most overrated "thing" in Jin Yong novels?

- Shaolin Sect (failure to have one candidate in the Huashan Tournaments, martial arts exponents roaming around (Xiao Yuanshan, Murong Bo) without even them knowing)

- Dugu Qiubai (there's a really huge possibility that all his opponents are of low quality beings, plus no concrete evidence of his invincibility)

- Lin Chaoying (some say she's better than Wang Chongyang, or even better than the other 4 original greats during her time, really??)

- Zhang Sanfeng (Despite his godly status got injured by the imposter - slow reaction that does not befit his reputation as a martial arts great of his time)

- Dongfang Bubai (again all his/her opponents aren't really that good, what if we place this she-male in DGSD or any of the Condor Trilogy, would he/she be able to reign supreme?)

- Shen Zhaojing martial arts from A Deadly Secret (a wonderful internal cultivation martial arts depicted - able to revive people etc., but there's also a huge possibly that this martial arts could be sh** if we place it alongside YJJ, BMSG, 9Yin, 9Yang, etc.)

I'm sure there are more uber overrated things in JY novels, I might have left them out. In your opinion, which of them is the most overrated in JY novels?

[flamer]

- Shaolin Sect (failure to have one candidate in the Huashan Tournaments, martial arts exponents roaming around (Xiao Yuanshan, Murong Bo) without even them knowing)

Excuse me, the most powerful person in the whole of JY universe came from Shaolin. Also see the tenancy of Shaolin to produce extraordinary men. Xiao Feng, Sweeper Monk, Jue Yuan, Zhang Sanfeng (to a limited extent). Only XiaoYao Sect rivals Shaolin in terms of output. I think we also have to accept that Shaolin is a temple after all. Their vision of training martial arts is to strengthen the body, not to dominate.

So back to the topic. Out of the list, DGQB is the most overrated IMO.

[ChanceEncounter]

- Shaolin Sect (failure to have one candidate in the Huashan Tournaments, martial arts exponents roaming around (Xiao Yuanshan, Murong Bo) without even them knowing)

Shaolin masters don't compete in the Huashan tournaments.

And there's thousands of rooms in the sect, are they supposed to know every thing that breathes in them?

- Dugu Qiubai (there's a really huge possibility that all his opponents are of low quality beings, plus no concrete evidence of his invincibility)

There's a really huge possibility that the curbstomped on all the greats of his time with minimal effort too.

And when was the last time that DG9J lost in canon? And this was with people who did not attain the same level of mastery as he did. Not to mention, I distinctly remember reading in one of the publications that Jin Yong said DGQB represented the highest in cultivation, and that he was the strongest of all his characters. And that amongst the characters that were depicted within the novel, the Sweeper Monk was his strongest. I'll try to find the transcript.

Of course there's no concrete evidence, because he didn't appear in the novels.

- Lin Chaoying (some say she's better than Wang Chongyang, or even better than the other 4 original greats during her time, really??)

She was at the very least, in the same league.

If anything, no one seems to put in her the category of the greats.

- Zhang Sanfeng (Despite his godly status got injured by the imposter - slow reaction that does not befit his reputation as a martial arts great of his time)

That's why it's called a cheapshot.

- Dongfang Bubai (again all his/her opponents aren't really that good, what if we place this she-male in DGSD or any of the Condor Trilogy, would he/she be able to reign supreme?)

I've yet to see logically sound evidence that the era of DGSD/Condor trilogy was so much greater than that of XAJH. Not to mention, if someone technically wins in a 4 on 1 against the guys he beat, they're good. Period.

- Shen Zhaojing martial arts from A Deadly Secret (a wonderful internal cultivation martial arts depicted - able to revive people etc., but there's also a huge possibly that this martial arts could be sh** if we place it alongside YJJ, BMSG, 9Yin, 9Yang, etc.)

There's also the possibility that it won't.

What kind of argument is this "possibility" logic? So basically, you're saying that if you haven't seen it beat others, or you don't like it, it's a possibility that it's overrated and sucks.

[Ken Cheng]

She was at the very least, in the same league.

If she hadn't been so catty, maybe the boys would have let her play.

Puerile playground politics play well into adulthood.

[tape]

I hate seeing Dugu in these overrated topics, since I feel it's so clearly obvious he's supposed to be an invincible and incredible fighter. Author intention, his legacy, even his bird is incredible. Everything he's associated with is on the highest level, yet people still try to think of reasons to put him down. Of course there's no solid proof since he's been dead for so long, but the martial arts he's passed down should squash any debates of him being anywhere near Great level. With the HIS Yang Guo literally caught up with the Greats in terms of sheer fighting in a month or so, and Dugu had god knows how many years of eating snake bladders and training in the waves. Heck, he could've moved to that valley just so he could eat bladders for the next fifty years!

Also, what makes you say there is a really huge possibility?

[Dennis Chen]

There's a bit of contradiction. If Dugu required snake bladders to make him all powerful like Yang Guo, then his martial arts alone isn't all powerful. Linghu Chong could defeat Chongxu on swordplay, but would have been tromped in a real fight.

[tape]

Well that's the thing. He has an art that requires basically no inner power, and an art that relies entirely on inner power. He has developed into an allaround swordsman that can do what he pleases. Except we know he eats snake gall bladders and most likely has tremendous inner power.

[Dennis Chen]

Without internal energy, could DGQB have been undefeated using only DG9J? Without snake gall bladders, could he have been undefeated at such a young age?

[LuNaR]

shaolin sect... people in wulin keep saying they are the best sect and most feared, but they always get their @ss kicked

[flamer]

shaolin sect... people in wulin keep saying they are the best sect and most feared, but they always get their @ss kicked

But can we actually think of one occasion that Shaolin was completely trashed and no "face" was left for them at all?

1) HSDS, 3 Du-Monks equaled Zhang Wuji's prowess.

2) DGSD, Sweeper Monk, need we say more?

3) ROCH, Jue Yuan shocked Yang Guo with his internal.

Lots of amazing stuff happened from Shaolin.

[tape]

Without internal energy, could DGQB have been undefeated using only DG9J? Without snake gall bladders, could he have been undefeated at such a young age?

LHC defeated most people and he was using it for less than a year. No reason DGQB couldn't. Also, whether he can do it with no internal energy is a moot point. He obviously has really friggin strong internal along with super advanced sword theories. Could Wang Chongyang defeat people without inner power? I don't know what you're trying to communicate with your point.

[Trien Chieu]

I hate seeing Dugu in these overrated topics, since I feel it's so clearly obvious he's supposed to be an invincible and incredible fighter. Author intention, his legacy, even his bird is incredible. Everything he's associated with is on the highest level, yet people still try to think of reasons to put him down. Of course there's no solid proof since he's been dead for so long, but the martial arts he's passed down should squash any debates of him being anywhere near Great level. With the HIS Yang Guo literally caught up with the Greats in terms of sheer fighting in a month or so, and Dugu had god knows how many years of eating snake bladders and training in the waves. Heck, he could've moved to that valley just so he could eat bladders for the next fifty years!

Also, what makes you say there is a really huge possibility?

Dugu QiuBai that you guys talk about here is very different than the Dugu Qiubai that I saw in TVB series with Felix Wong. I don't recall Dugu Qiubai ever eat snake gall-bladder and there is no giant bird or anything like that. However, his life is a tragedy, really feel sorry for him..... His sword-play is very very cool here....

[LuNaR]

But can we actually think of one occasion that Shaolin was completely trashed and no "face" was left for them at all?

1) HSDS, 3 Du-Monks equaled Zhang Wuji's prowess.

2) DGSD, Sweeper Monk, need we say more?

3) ROCH, Jue Yuan shocked Yang Guo with his internal.

Lots of amazing stuff happened from Shaolin.

except they all kind of come out of no where, like jin yong just invented them to balance the power or make the novel continue. their leader is always weak, and their desciples always get destroyed

[kwekmh]

Was there anything that implied DGQB relied on the snake bladders to grant him his extraordinary internal energy? Yes, the Giant Condor fed Yang Guo the snake bladders but that does not necessarily mean that DGQB ate the same. Of course, I could be wrong as my memory of ROCH is now muddled.

[Extremer88]

Excuse me, the most powerful person in the whole of JY universe came from Shaolin. Also see the tenancy of Shaolin to produce extraordinary men. Xiao Feng, Sweeper Monk, Jue Yuan, Zhang Sanfeng (to a limited extent). Only XiaoYao Sect rivals Shaolin in terms of output. I think we also have to accept that Shaolin is a temple after all. Their vision of training martial arts is to strengthen the body, not to dominate.

Xiao Feng, Sweeper Monk, Jue Yuan and Zhang Sanfeng aren't really official Shaolin monks. Maybe Jueyuan is, but he wasn't officially taught any martial arts by Shaolin. He learnt 9Yang well, but it's also a fact that he couldn't fight.

He could be as worse as Duan Yu as far as real combat expertise is concerned.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Was there anything that implied DGQB relied on the snake bladders to grant him his extraordinary internal energy? Yes, the Giant Condor fed Yang Guo the snake bladders but that does not necessarily mean that DGQB ate the same. Of course, I could be wrong as my memory of ROCH is now muddled.

no, DGQB didn't necessarily eat any snake bladders, but that is not important.

the important matter is that snake bladdered helped YG's ability to weild the heavy iron sword as a normal sword. if DGQB can achieve the same point, he should have at least the same amount of power production, regardless of snake bladders.

[flamer]

Xiao Feng, Sweeper Monk, Jue Yuan and Zhang Sanfeng aren't really official Shaolin monks.

Yea but thats not the point lol. They all had relations and studied under Shaolin. XF, Jueyuan's internal definitely came from Shaolin. Sweeper Monk is not officially Shaolin? Unless someone can prove that his kung fu originated from somewhere else, im very much inclined to think he is a Shaolin man through and through.

[Ken Cheng]

Yea but thats not the point lol. They all had relations and studied under Shaolin. XF, Jueyuan's internal definitely came from Shaolin. Sweeper Monk is not officially Shaolin? Unless someone can prove that his kung fu originated from somewhere else, im very much inclined to think he is a Shaolin man through and through.

The only point I dispute here is Gok Yeun. His source of inner power was the 9 Yeung Jen Ging, which was in Shaolin's possession, but did not originate from Shaolin (unless we go by HSDS Ed. 1, in which both the 9 Yeung Jen Ging and the 9 Yum Jen Ging were revealed as created by Shaolin pioneer Damo). In HSDS Ed. 3, we know that the 9 Yeung Jen Ging was created by a Buddhist monk friend of Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung's by reverse-engineering what he had read in the 9 Yum Jen Ging. I don't think it was ever indicated that this monk, however, was from the Shaolin Temple.

[flamer]

The only point I dispute here is Gok Yeun. His source of inner power was the 9 Yeung Jen Ging, which was in Shaolin's possession, but did not originate from Shaolin (unless we go by HSDS Ed. 1, in which both the 9 Yeung Jen Ging and the 9 Yum Jen Ging were revealed as created by Shaolin pioneer Damo). In HSDS Ed. 3, we know that the 9 Yeung Jen Ging was created by a Buddhist monk friend of Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung's by reverse-engineering what he had read in the 9 Yum Jen Ging. I don't think it was ever indicated that this monk, however, was from the Shaolin Temple.

Ah well that was added in 3rd Edition... (i read the 1st edition i think). Still... Shaolin is the place Jue Yuan cultivated his energy and the place where 9 Yang is kept so yea...

[PJ]

Even in the 2nd edition, it was mentioned that 9 Yang resembled Taoism more than Buddhism. Jue Yuan was affiliated with Shaolin, but had no martial arts ties with the temple.