Titles & forms of address in wuxia drama

[HuangYushi]

Right-clicking in Firefox didn't get me an option for 'encoding'.

Go to the main menu: View > Character Encoding > [choose what you need].
Encoding doesn't appear during right-click.

[sniffles]

Go to the main menu: View > Character Encoding > [choose what you need].
Encoding doesn't appear during right-click.

For some reason that didn't work for me, either. I spent way too much time fiddling with different encoding options in the View menu, none of which got me any results. Maybe I'll just have to switch to using IE for viewing this site at home.

Anyway, back to the original topic. I noticed last night while watching some more of ROCH '06 that occasionally shifu was translated as "mentor". I thought this was actually a good choice of interpretation, since shifu as used in wuxia drama seems to imply that the shifu takes on a parental relationship toward the disciple. This interpretation makes the objection to YG and XLN marrying a bit more comprehensible to a Western viewer.

[Ren Wo Xing]

In reviewing the YG/XLN relationship, the exact characters which make up the word, 'shifu', should be considered.

The word 'shifu' is made out of the characters 'shi' and 'fu'; the first one means 'master', in the sense of one being a master of a particular school/style/ability. The second character, 'fu', literally means 'father'.

Likewise, the proper way to address your shifu's wife would be 'shiniang'; again, the 'niang' character literally means 'mother'.

So it's a much closer, more familial relationship than merely that of a mentor/student one. The disciple should revere and respect his masters as though they were his own parents, and how could a filial, moral human being even contemplate having a physical relationship with his parents? The opposite is applicable from the master's side as well.

A master having a relationship with a disciple is something very much on par to incest, which explains the shock and horror which the people of Jianghu greeted Yang Guo's desire to marry XLN.

[sniffles]

In reviewing the YG/XLN relationship, the exact characters which make up the word, 'shifu', should be considered.

The word 'shifu' is made out of the characters 'shi' and 'fu'; the first one means 'master', in the sense of one being a master of a particular school/style/ability. The second character, 'fu', literally means 'father'.

Likewise, the proper way to address your shifu's wife would be 'shiniang'; again, the 'niang' character literally means 'mother'.

So it's a much closer, more familial relationship than merely that of a mentor/student one. The disciple should revere and respect his masters as though they were his own parents, and how could a filial, moral human being even contemplate having a physical relationship with his parents? The opposite is applicable from the master's side as well.

A master having a relationship with a disciple is something very much on par to incest, which explains the shock and horror which the people of Jianghu greeted Yang Guo's desire to marry XLN.

Thanks! I was able to get the real meaning of shifu from the context - and the behavior of the other characters toward YG and XLN after they announce their intentions. But just translating shifu as teacher didn't seem to explain it well enough. Mentor sometimes has parental implications, though not always. I guess there's not really any English equivalent to shifu.

I actually admire the variety of titles and forms of address available in Chinese. For example, having all the different words for aunts and uncles dependent on their relationship to the speaker. It can get so confusing in English speaking about family relationships when "uncle" can mean father's brother or mother's brother, or grandfather's or grandmother's brother.

Speaking of those usages, why does YG refer to GJ as bobo? I know Yang Kang and GJ were sworn brothers, but how does that make GJ Yang Kang's elder brother (I think that's what bobo means; my dictionary doesn't include that term)?

[Ren Wo Xing]

Speaking of those usages, why does YG refer to GJ as bobo? I know Yang Kang and GJ were sworn brothers, but how does that make GJ Yang Kang's elder brother (I think that's what bobo means; my dictionary doesn't include that term)?

Sworn brothers are supposed to be as close (if not closer) than real, blood brothers. When brotherhood is sworn, there is a ranking; there's an 'elder brother' and a 'younger brother'; for example, in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Liu Bei was the eldest brother, Guan Yu was the second brother, and Zhang Fei was the youngest brother.

In their oaths of brotherhood, Guo Jing was the elder, and Yang Kang was the younger; that is why Yang Guo can address Guo Jing as his 'bobo'.

[sniffles]

Sworn brothers are supposed to be as close (if not closer) than real, blood brothers. When brotherhood is sworn, there is a ranking; there's an 'elder brother' and a 'younger brother'; for example, in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Liu Bei was the eldest brother, Guan Yu was the second brother, and Zhang Fei was the youngest brother.

In their oaths of brotherhood, Guo Jing was the elder, and Yang Kang was the younger; that is why Yang Guo can address Guo Jing as his 'bobo'.

Just as a tangent to this, did the 'sworn brotherhood' relationship really exist historically? Does it still exist?

[Ren Wo Xing]

Just as a tangent to this, did the 'sworn brotherhood' relationship really exist historically? Does it still exist?

Yes, and yes, although obviously, it's pretty rare in modern society! China isn't the only place that has/had sworn brotherhoods/"blood brothers"/"oath brothers", by the by; the Mongolians did it, the Norse did it, and the Native Americans did it as well.

[sniffles]

Yes, and yes, although obviously, it's pretty rare in modern society! China isn't the only place that has/had sworn brotherhoods/"blood brothers"/"oath brothers", by the by; the Mongolians did it, the Norse did it, and the Native Americans did it as well.

Somehow the sworn brothers relationship doesn't seem quite the same to me as a Native American 'blood brothers' relationship. I don't know why, though. I guess it's just the difference in cultural context. I've always thought of oath brothers as a relationship predicated on a specific goal or event, but my familiarity with the concept is pretty limited.

Is there a specific term for sworn brother? While the translations over at wuxiapedia keep some Chinese terms, I've not seen a word for sworn brother used in anything I've read so far.

[Ren Wo Xing]

"结拜兄弟", "jie2 bai4 xiong1 di4".

Oath brothers are not necessarily predicated on anything in specific.

[sniffles]

"结拜兄弟", "jie2 bai4 xiong1 di4".

Oath brothers are not necessarily predicated on anything in specific.

Thanks! I think I recall hearing that term in the dialog in a tv series, but didn't know what it was at the time.

Can someone give me a quick primer on using numerals to represent the tones with Pinyin, as you did above? I think I see how that works but wouldn't mind a key.

[Ren Wo Xing]

http://www.wku.edu/~shizhen.gao/Chin...nyin/tones.htm

The 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tones correspond to 1/2/3/4, obviously.

[sniffles]

http://www.wku.edu/~shizhen.gao/Chinese101/pinyin/tones.htm

The 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tones correspond to 1/2/3/4, obviously.

Thanks again. Your help is very much appreciated.

[Ren Wo Xing]

No problemo.

[sniffles]

Next question:
I'm trying to understand Jinlun Fawang's name. I've seen it translated as Golden Wheel Monk, or sometimes as Reverend Jinlun. I can understand Jinlun, since my dictionary tells me that "golden" is jin1de, and "wheel" is che1lun2.

But I can't find anything in my dictionary to correspond with fawang and I'm not sure of the tones for that. It sounds to me like fa2wang, but I don't know that I'm hearing it correctly. The dictionary says "reverend" is mu4shide zun1cheng1, and "monk" is xiu1dao4shi4.

Also, sometimes it sounds like the actors are saying Dawang instead of Fawang.

[Ren Wo Xing]

金轮法王: Jin1 lun2 fa3 wang4: Gold Wheel Dharma King. Dharma King, in this context, is a Tibetan title for a monk of high accomplishment; however, being cumbersome to use/translate, everyone just calls him the Golden Wheel Monk instead.

As of third edition, due to Jinyong's concern over whether or not it appeared as though he was engaging in Tibet-bashing by putting in multiple Tibetan monk villains, his background was changed to that being a Mongolian, and his name has been changed to 金轮国师: Jin1 lun2 guo2 shi1: Gold Wheel National Master.

PS: Your dictionary is a bit strange; it seems to be giving you definitions, as opposed to translations. "mu4shide zun1cheng1" literally comes out as "The respectful way to address a clergyman", and "xiu1dao4shi4" means "A religious practitioner/cultivator." As an FYI, the actual translation for a Buddhist monk should be "和尚", 'he2 shang4'. The term of address, 'Reverend', itself doesn't really apply to Buddhism, since it's a concept out of the Christian religion; however, the closest analogy would be the common addressing a monk as "大师", 'da4 shi1', which literally means 'great master'. Alternately, the Abbot of a Buddhist temple would be addressed/referred to as "方丈", "fang1 zhang4", which literally means 'Abbot'.

In both cases, the monk's title could be used as a form of address. If the monk's name were to be included as well, it would come before the address; so if you wanted to refer to a monk named Jigong, it would be Jigong Dashi, or Jigong Fangzhang.

[sniffles]

My dictionary does seem to be missing a bit of info. It defines da4 shi1 as "great master", but doesn't mention that it could be the form of address for a monk, although it does include examples of usage for some terms.

Your explanation also helps me understand why Jinlun Fawang speaks Mongolian and not Tibetan in ROCH '06, which I found confusing (although he's still called Fawang and not Guoshi). Evidently the translation I read wasn't the 3rd edition version, so I wasn't aware of the change in nationality.

I can see I have a lot to learn about the structure of Chinese language. Right now I don't understand why the combination of "golden" and "wheel" loses a portion of each word. That's not how compound words work in English.

[Ren Wo Xing]

What do you mean, how golden and wheel loses a portion of each word? Jin1 is golden, lun2 is wheel. Jinlun Fawang: Dharma King of the Golden Wheel. If you are referring to your dictionary, jin1de literally means, "[made] of gold"; che1lun2 literally means, "vehicle wheel". Again, a descriptor, not a direct translation. There are some cases where portions of each word can be used as a substitute for the entire word, but that's usually for literary/poetic effect, and that's not the case here.

FYI, even in 2nd edition, Jinlun Fawang is capable of speaking Mongolian, because he was working for the Mongolian khans. Hard to work for someone if you cannot communicate with them!

[sniffles]

What do you mean, how golden and wheel loses a portion of each word? Jin1 is golden, lun2 is wheel. Jinlun Fawang: Dharma King of the Golden Wheel. If you are referring to your dictionary, jin1de literally means, "[made] of gold"; che1lun2 literally means, "vehicle wheel". Again, a descriptor, not a direct translation. There are some cases where portions of each word can be used as a substitute for the entire word, but that's usually for literary/poetic effect, and that's not the case here.

FYI, even in 2nd edition, Jinlun Fawang is capable of speaking Mongolian, because he was working for the Mongolian khans. Hard to work for someone if you cannot communicate with them!

I guess I need to stop taking the dictionary definitions to be literal translations.

As far as Jinlun Fawang speaking Mongolian too, I understood that. I just meant that he speaks Mongolian with Da'erba instead of Tibetan in ROCH '06. Guo Fu asks what Jinlun is saying to Da'erba during the contest at Da Xing Guan, and Guo Jing replies that he's speaking Mongolian.

[HuangYushi]

Sorry to butt in, but I'm rather amused by sniffles' signature, which says 老婆.
老婆 is used colloquially to mean "wife", so if the generic meaning of an "elderly woman" is intended, the characters used should be 老婆婆, i.e with an additional 婆.

[sniffles]

Sorry to butt in, but I'm rather amused by sniffles' signature, which says 老婆.
老婆 is used colloquially to mean "wife", so if the generic meaning of an "elderly woman" is intended, the characters used should be 老婆婆, i.e with an additional 婆.

You're not butting in at all. I just copied and pasted from Ren Wo Xing's earlier post in which that term was discussed and assumed that it only meant "old lady", which was why I selected it. I think it's very likely I'm the oldest lady on this forum.