Titles & forms of address in wuxia drama

[sniffles]

Recently I've become quite fascinated with the idea of learning to speak Chinese - specifically Mandarin. I have an audio course and a couple of books, and I've been watching lots of Chinese DVDs with the Mandarin language track on so I can hear the language spoken conversationally.

But my resource materials don't use some of the terms that are used in wuxia dramas, and I'm a little confused by some of the titles and forms of address that are used.

For instance, one of my books says that shifu is a term that can be used to address an older waiter or waitress in a restaurant. I've always heard that word used to mean "master" or "teacher" in wuxia drama. The books and lessons say the word for "teacher" is laoshi or jaoshi. So what does shifu mean, then?

[JamesG]

Recently I've become quite fascinated with the idea of learning to speak Chinese - specifically Mandarin. I have an audio course and a couple of books, and I've been watching lots of Chinese DVDs with the Mandarin language track on so I can hear the language spoken conversationally.

But my resource materials don't use some of the terms that are used in wuxia dramas, and I'm a little confused by some of the titles and forms of address that are used.

For instance, one of my books says that shifu is a term that can be used to address an older waiter or waitress in a restaurant. I've always heard that word used to mean "master" or "teacher" in wuxia drama. The books and lessons say the word for "teacher" is laoshi or jaoshi. So what does shifu mean, then?

Check this out sniffles
http://www.wuxiasociety.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52
http://www.acjournal.org/holdings/vo...huang_jia.html

[sniffles]

Check this out sniffles
http://www.wuxiasociety.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52
http://www.acjournal.org/holdings/vo...huang_jia.html

You know, I thought I'd seen a thread at wuxiasociety about just this topic, but when I went to search for it I couldn't find it. Thanks again, JamesG.

Now if I could just get someone there to activate my account so I could post in their forums...

[JamesG]

You know, I thought I'd seen a thread at wuxiasociety about just this topic, but when I went to search for it I couldn't find it. Thanks again, JamesG.

Now if I could just get someone there to activate my account so I could post in their forums...

Give them an email nudge here: [email protected]

[sniffles]

Give them an email nudge here: [email protected]

I have done so more than once, but no response as of yet.

Back to my original topic: I've noticed in watching a couple of wuxia dramas lately that characters often address more senior members of wulin with a title that I don't see defined in the list at wuxiasociety. It sounds like they're saying chimbei, or sometimes lao chimbei.

The subtitles on Condor Hero '06 translate this as "My respect", which of course isn't grammatically correct in English, but leads me to think that perhaps it should be translated as "Respected senior" or something similar.

[Han Solo]

I have done so more than once, but no response as of yet.

Back to my original topic: I've noticed in watching a couple of wuxia dramas lately that characters often address more senior members of wulin with a title that I don't see defined in the list at wuxiasociety. It sounds like they're saying chimbei, or sometimes lao chimbei.

The subtitles on Condor Hero '06 translate this as "My respect", which of course isn't grammatically correct in English, but leads me to think that perhaps it should be translated as "Respected senior" or something similar.

You're right.

Chian Bei = senior
Lao Chian Bei= old senior- of extreme seniority- respected senior.

Han Solo

[Ren Wo Xing]

I have done so more than once, but no response as of yet.

Back to my original topic: I've noticed in watching a couple of wuxia dramas lately that characters often address more senior members of wulin with a title that I don't see defined in the list at wuxiasociety. It sounds like they're saying chimbei, or sometimes lao chimbei.

The subtitles on Condor Hero '06 translate this as "My respect", which of course isn't grammatically correct in English, but leads me to think that perhaps it should be translated as "Respected senior" or something similar.

What they are saying is "前辈", or, in pinyin, "Qian2 bei4". Literally, it translates into, 'previous generation'; qian means 'previous', and bei means 'generation'. "Lao3 qian2 bei4", "老前辈", literally is "old previous generation".

Both are essentially interchangeable and used to respectfully address and/or refer to an elder who is usually at least two generations above you.

To refer to someone at least one generation above you, terms which could be used would be "长辈", "zhang3 bei4", or "尊长", "zun1 zhang3", ie, "elder generation" and "respected elder".

So you could refer to a friend's grandparents as either 'qian2 bei4' or 'zhang3 bei4' since both apply, but you shouldn't refer to a friend's parents as 'qian2 bei4', only 'zhang3 bei4'; 'qian2 bei4' that would imply they are a generation older than they actually are!

[sniffles]

Thanks to you both, Han Solo and Ren Wo Xing! I knew I probably wasn't hearing that word correctly. Not that it would have helped if I had figured out it was qian bei- my pocket dictionary doesn't give that definition for qian.

This one isn't a form of address, but it's driving me crazy. I'm watching ROCH '06 and have noticed several times that a character says a phrase that sounds like hao bu hao at the end of a sentence, which doesn't make any sense to me. I imagine I must not be hearing that one correctly, either.

Listening to natural speech is a bit different than listening to audio lessons, where they say everything very slowly to emphasize the different tones.

[HuangYushi]

This one isn't a form of address, but it's driving me crazy. I'm watching ROCH '06 and have noticed several times that a character says a phrase that sounds like hao bu hao at the end of a sentence, which doesn't make any sense to me. I imagine I must not be hearing that one correctly, either.

It might be entirely possible that you've actually been hearing hao bu hao 好不好 as you understand it. In Chinese, there is a particular structure that appends 好不好 at the end of a sentence to turn the sentence into a question that requires a "Yes/No" answer.

For example: 我们一起吃饭, 好不好?
[wo3 men2 yi1 qi3 chi1 fan4, hao3 bu4 hao3?]

我们一起吃饭 is a statement. It means "Let us eat together".

When 好不好 is appended to it, the statement becomes a question, literally:
"Let us eat together, is that all right or not?"

In English, we would say: "Is it all right if we eat together?"

Hope that helps.

HYS

btw: Listening to natural speech can be a bit frustrating for beginners due to regional accents, but it is a very necessary part of learning the language. I tend to speak very fast when I have many things to say but little time to say them, so when my students (whose only exposure to spoken Chinese is in the classroom) can understand me in such circumstances, I give them a lot of credit for it.

[sniffles]

It might be entirely possible that you've actually been hearing hao bu hao 好不好 as you understand it. In Chinese, there is a particular structure that appends 好不好 at the end of a sentence to turn the sentence into a question that requires a "Yes/No" answer.

For example: 我们一起吃饭, 好不好?
[wo3 men2 yi1 qi3 chi1 fan4, hao3 bu4 hao3?]

我们一起吃饭 is a statement. It means "Let us eat together".

When 好不好 is appended to it, the statement becomes a question, literally:
"Let us eat together, is that all right or not?"

In English, we would say: "Is it all right if we eat together?"

Hope that helps.

HYS

btw: Listening to natural speech can be a bit frustrating for beginners due to regional accents, but it is a very necessary part of learning the language. I tend to speak very fast when I have many things to say but little time to say them, so when my students (whose only exposure to spoken Chinese is in the classroom) can understand me in such circumstances, I give them a lot of credit for it.

Yes, that's very helpful, thank you!
I had a suspicion that it might be something like that based on the context of use, but I was trying too hard to translate it literally. That's the trouble with colloquialisms. Language lessons never seem to teach those parts of speech.

Next question: My language lessons are also telling me that the word for wife is taitai, which I don't hear anyone using in any of the dramas I'm watching. Everyone seems to use qizi instead. My pocket dictionary makes it sound like taitai is used as a title equivalent to Mrs. in English. Are there parts of the country where it's more common to use one term or the other?

[HuangYushi]

Next question: My language lessons are also telling me that the word for wife is taitai, which I don't hear anyone using in any of the dramas I'm watching. Everyone seems to use qizi instead. My pocket dictionary makes it sound like taitai is used as a title equivalent to Mrs. in English. Are there parts of the country where it's more common to use one term or the other?

Qizi 妻子 is the noun for "wife".
Taitai 太太 is, as you said, the title equivalent to "Mrs". You can also use it to refer politely to the mistress of a household or a (presumably) married woman. You hear taitai in modern dramas.
In ancient dramas, the word is furen 夫人, which can be used interchangeably to mean "wife", "Mrs" (when prefixed to be surname), "madame" or "lady" (see the example below).

Example: 这位太太是林雨忠先生的妻子。
[zhe4 wei4 tai4tai shi4 lin2 yu3 zhong1 xian1 sheng2 de qi1 zi3.]

Translated: This taitai [madame/lady] is the wife of Mr Lin Yuzhong.

People use taitai to mean "wife" because they want to sound more polite, just like they use xiansheng 先生 (literally, "Mr") to mean "husband".

btw: Do you have a proper full dictionary besides your pocket one? Pocket dictionaries are convenient, but they tend to be lacking in the full range of uses for words and the corresponding examples.

Finally: Language lessons come with different foci and levels. Therefore, what you learn depends on what your particular language course is about. I teach Chinese for academic use, so the course tends to focus more on reading and writing, but my students can also take an optional course that has a larger speaking component. Written Chinese can be quite different from the spoken one in certain circumstances.

HYS

[Ren Wo Xing]

Yushi, you missed one (intentionally, I'm sure!)

'老婆', ie, 'old lady'. A very common colloquial term, used in casual reference.

[sniffles]

Qizi 妻子 is the noun for "wife".
Taitai 太太 is, as you said, the title equivalent to "Mrs". You can also use it to refer politely to the mistress of a household or a (presumably) married woman. You hear taitai is modern dramas.
In ancient dramas, the word is furen 夫人, which can be used interchangeably to mean "wife", "Mrs" (when prefixed to be surname), "madame" or "lady" (see the example below).

Example: 这位太太是林雨忠先生的妻子。
[zhe4 wei4 tai4tai shi4 lin2 yu3 zhong1 xian1 sheng2 de qi1 zi3.]

Translated: This taitai [madame/lady] is the wife of Mr Lin Yuzhong.

People use taitai to mean "wife" because they want to sound more polite, just like they use xiansheng 先生 (literally, "Mr") to mean "husband".

btw: Do you have a proper full dictionary besides your pocket one? Pocket dictionaries are convenient, but they tend to be lacking in the full range of uses for words and the corresponding examples.

Finally: Language lessons come with different foci and levels. Therefore, what you learn depends on what your particular language course is about. I teach Chinese for academic use, so the course tends to focus more on reading and writing, but my students can also take an optional course that has a larger speaking component. Written Chinese can be quite different from the spoken one in certain circumstances.

HYS

I don't have a full dictionary, just the pocket one and a phrase book for tourists and business travelers. I should probably invest in a full dictionary. The pocket one is turning out to be severely lacking. I just purchased it because it was inexpensive.

I've only progressed a little way into the audio lessons. I have many more lessons to listen to.

Now I need to figure out how to set my browser so I can view the Chinese characters that you're using.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Sniffles, right click anywhere on the screen, select encoding, then select Western European (ISO). You can also try Chinese Simplified (GB****).

[JamesG]

I also thank HS, HYS, and RWX for adding some new words for my LOCH glossary. Some of them may be useful to andrea at wuxiasociety for her list????

[HuangYushi]

Yushi, you missed one (intentionally, I'm sure!)

'老婆', ie, 'old lady'. A very common colloquial term, used in casual reference.

That's right, 老兄!
Didn't want to confuse sniffles by adding terms outside the circumstances that he/she has not mentioned in earlier posts.

[sniffles]

That's right, 老兄!
Didn't want to confuse sniffles by adding terms outside the circumstances that he/she has not mentioned in earlier posts.

You could probably call me by the term Ren Wo Xing mentioned - if I knew what it was. Still can't get my browser to display the Chinese characters.

Could I make a request that any Chinese terms given use both Pinyin and simplified? That will help me out. Or is that too confusing for others?

[Ren Wo Xing]

The term he used was "lao3 xiong1"; literally translated, "old brother", but in usage, more like the British phrase "old chap". Beijingers/Northerners tend to use that phrase quite liberally.

[sniffles]

The term he used was "lao3 xiong1"; literally translated, "old brother", but in usage, more like the British phrase "old chap". Beijingers/Northerners tend to use that phrase quite liberally.

What is the Pinyin for the one you used earlier, that translates as "old lady"?

"lao3 xiong1" reminds me of the term everyone uses for Zhou Botong in ROCH '06.

I need to learn how to use the numerals to represent the tones. Know any websites that describe how this works?

And I think I've figured out my browser trouble - my Internet Explorer at work shows the Chinese characters. It's Firefox at home that won't display them for some reason. Right-clicking in Firefox didn't get me an option for 'encoding'.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Old lady: "lao3 po2"

I'm pretty sure that Firefox allows you to display it as well. Play around with the tools/options. I have Firefox at home as well; if it isn't working for you by the time I get back, I'll take a look.