Classic elements in wuxia fiction/drama

[sniffles]

My apologies if a thread already exists for this topic - a search didn't net me anything but this thread:
http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...=wuxia+cliches

While amusing, it isn't quite what I'm referring to here.

I haven't read a lot of wuxia fiction yet, there being so little of it available in English. So far I've read Return of the Condor Heroes, The Book and the Sword, and I'm just finishing Fox Volant of the Snowy Mountain. I am noticing that JY had certain elements he liked to include in his novels, such as heroes orphaned at an early age, and having those heroes learn martials arts from many different people. But I feel I'm a little limited in scope since I haven't read anything by any other wuxia authors.

What other elements would you consider essential to making a piece of fiction fall into the category of wuxia fiction?
Does it have to be set in a historical or pseudo-historical version of China?
Do the heroes have to use lightness kung fu to get around and practice circulating their chi?
Do the themes have to include revenge or nationalism?

[JamesG]

The orphaned under-dog who rises far above his/her lowly state is a great plot device. It seems sort of natural to feel delight each time they take another step towards becoming a hero/heroine.

[sniffles]

The orphaned under-dog who rises far above his/her lowly state is a great plot device. It seems sort of natural to feel delight each time they take another step towards becoming a hero/heroine.

That's a popular theme in Western literature, too. Look at the popularity of Harry Potter.

[PJ]

Just do what Gu Long does: don't drop the slightest hint on the hero's background at all.

[sniffles]

Just do what Gu Long does: don't drop the slightest hint on the hero's background at all.

Ah, the classic men of mystery - like Clint Eastwood in The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.

[Ken Cheng]

The orphaned under-dog who rises far above his/her lowly state is a great plot device. It seems sort of natural to feel delight each time they take another step towards becoming a hero/heroine.

That's a popular theme in Western literature, too. Look at the popularity of Harry Potter.

Charles Dickens did it best.

[owbjhx]

What other elements would you consider essential to making a piece of fiction fall into the category of wuxia fiction?
Does it have to be set in a historical or pseudo-historical version of China?
Do the heroes have to use lightness kung fu to get around and practice circulating their chi?
Do the themes have to include revenge or nationalism?

My direct knowledge of wuxia is limited to Jinyong's major novels, but I'd say that what is essential about wuxia - what distinguishes it as a genre - is that it's about martial artists putting their martial arts to use according to (or in contravention of) the honour code of the xia. These things are, to me, wuxia's DNA; strip everything away which wuxia shares with other genres, and this is the bare bones. So to answer your questions, I think it's very possible to have a piece of fiction that is set in the present, involves only strictly realistic martial arts, and doesn't have revenge/nationalism...and which is still identifiably a wuxia story. In my opinion, it's really the martial arts plus the xia code that makes wuxia - which, coincidentally, is basically what the word "wuxia" means.

What you've noticed about JY's novels are particular aspects of his style and some of his influences (e.g. Dickens). I'd say Shen Diao Xia Lu (frequently misnamed "ROCH") is a typical work from the first half of his career - a story of a child's development into adulthood, in a wuxia setting. (I call it "wuxia bildungsroman".) In this stage of his career, JY liked his epic pseudo-historical backdrops and earnest 'for-the-people' nationalism, so you'll see these things not only in Shen Diao but also the other two 'Trilogy' novels. To some extent, he abandoned these (thankfully...) in his later works, but they're still very much wuxia.

[shen diao xia]

To me based on what I have read, most wuxia stories are based on a few notions;
- "good trying to repress bad" but not all that belong to the "bad" are bad
- rise of the underdog (already mentioned)
- individuals challenging societal norms and having a tough time coping
- neverending revenge

Add a bit of MA and love story and its done!

At least, its much better than Korean drama that uses an even simpler formula which is "A loves B but B loves C" and none of them know wtf is going on until its too late?

[K2Grey]

People have to fall off cliffs and not die, depending on the plot, they may also get a secret martial arts manual or meet a powerful and usually eccentric master.

[PJ]

I'd say that what is essential about wuxia - what distinguishes it as a genre - is that it's about martial artists putting their martial arts to use according to (or in contravention of) the honour code of the xia. These things are, to me, wuxia's DNA; strip everything away which wuxia shares with other genres, and this is the bare bones. So to answer your questions, I think it's very possible to have a piece of fiction that is set in the present, involves only strictly realistic martial arts, and doesn't have revenge/nationalism...and which is still identifiably a wuxia story. In my opinion, it's really the martial arts plus the xia code that makes wuxia - which, coincidentally, is basically what the word "wuxia" means.

What would you call a story that has the wu but not the xia? By the way, I think xia is overrated. I would like to see wu infused with more liberal interpretation of humanity, like a story where Dongfang Bubai is the main character.

[Trien Chieu]

To me based on what I have read, most wuxia stories are based on a few notions;
- "good trying to repress bad" but not all that belong to the "bad" are bad
- rise of the underdog (already mentioned)
- individuals challenging societal norms and having a tough time coping
- neverending revenge

Add a bit of MA and love story and its done!

At least, its much better than Korean drama that uses an even simpler formula which is "A loves B but B loves C" and none of them know wtf is going on until its too late?

I agree, wuxia is much more interesting than Korean Drama. Among TV series, I think Korean series is the worst... Many many people praise about Dae Jin Gum, but it is just too boring to me. I can't even finish the series, I just sick about the cooking and stuff....

Among TV series, I think TVB is still number 1, then ATV, Then China, then Taiwanese, ...., Korean is definitely the last....

[sarakoth]

What would you call a story that has the wu but not the xia? By the way, I think xia is overrated. I would like to see wu infused with more liberal interpretation of humanity, like a story where Dongfang Bubai is the main character.

Wu without xia is actually kind of hard to imagine for me.

[PJ]

Wu without xia is actually kind of hard to imagine for me.

Why? I'm not saying there has to be no xia at all, but it could be deemphasized. For example, imagine the story of Dongfang Bubai. In his early career, he shared chivalry with The Master of Thundering Wind Hall Tong Baixiong, but later he turned to the dark side.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Ludingji comes closest to what you've described, I think.

[PJ]

Ludingji comes closest to what you've described, I think.

But Wei Xiaobao has very high principles of xia. His loyalty is often noted.

Basically, I would like a wu-x story with a villain as the protagonist.

[HuangYushi]

What would you call a story that has the wu but not the xia?

If the characters in the story use wu without really showing much xia (or any at all), such as stories where the protagonist seeks personal revenge above all else from the antagonist and a lot of people get beat up/killed for the slightest provocation, I'd call these wuda 武打 stories.

[owbjhx]

What would you call a story that has the wu but not the xia? By the way, I think xia is overrated. I would like to see wu infused with more liberal interpretation of humanity, like a story where Dongfang Bubai is the main character.

Hmmm. I actually think xia is underrated in comparison with wu. It's certainly comparatively underdeveloped, which perhaps reflects wuxia's infancy as a literary genre. (As always, I talk only of Jinyong.) The xia element seems to me to contain the potential.

I also think Dongfang Bubai is intriguing, but I reckon that you don't really want what HYS amusingly describes as wuda (武打) or - even worse - wuxia as in 无侠. The strong presence of xia-ness, an honour code often bordering on the inhuman, is a powerful part of the genre especially when characters are shown not performing to that standard - i.e. being human. In fact, I'd say that the character of DFBB is such a brilliant one precisely because of the way xia-ness is constructed in Xiao Ao Jiang Hu. Without that framework, he's just a d***less villain; with that framework, he's a very clever literary idea, meaningful on many levels. And without being preachy, taking away xia-ness makes the genre a lot less edifying and a lot more decadent.

[Trien Chieu]

But Wei Xiaobao has very high principles of xia. His loyalty is often noted.

Basically, I would like a wu-x story with a villain as the protagonist.

Wu without Xia does occurred in ancient series. Series about history/power/king/conqueror/ect... Good people can be loser and villains can be the ultimate winner

[PJ]

Hmmm. I actually think xia is underrated in comparison with wu. It's certainly comparatively underdeveloped, which perhaps reflects wuxia's infancy as a literary genre. (As always, I talk only of Jinyong.) The xia element seems to me to contain the potential.

I don't think I can agree that the xia is lacking. Almost everybody in Jin Yong universe, regardless of how high their martial arts, tend to have one thing in common: they value honor and loyalty. Isn't that the essence of xia? Even some villains have the xia quality, such as Eight-Armed Swordsman Fang Dongbai and Yang Lianting. That's why I eventually got sick of reading about everybody having that quality. It's a bit overdone IMO.

I also think Dongfang Bubai is intriguing, but I reckon that you don't really want what HYS amusingly describes as wuda (武打) or - even worse - wuxia as in 无侠. The strong presence of xia-ness, an honour code often bordering on the inhuman, is a powerful part of the genre especially when characters are shown not performing to that standard - i.e. being human. In fact, I'd say that the character of DFBB is such a brilliant one precisely because of the way xia-ness is constructed in Xiao Ao Jiang Hu. Without that framework, he's just a d***less villain; with that framework, he's a very clever literary idea, meaningful on many levels. And without being preachy, taking away xia-ness makes the genre a lot less edifying and a lot more decadent.

I just want to see more flexibility in creative writing. I don't like genres and boundaries. I believe we should be able to construct multi-dimensional stories without adhering to a strict code of what we must or must not do.

[owbjhx]

I don't think I can agree that the xia is lacking. Almost everybody in Jin Yong universe, regardless of how high their martial arts, tend to have one thing in common: they value honor and loyalty. Isn't that the essence of xia? Even some villains have the xia quality, such as Eight-Armed Swordsman Fang Dongbai and Yang Lianting. That's why I eventually got sick of reading about everybody having that quality. It's a bit overdone IMO.

I agree with your comment, but your comment seems to me to imply a criticism of Jinyong rather than a criticism of xia-ness itself or its role in the genre. In general, JY spends way too much time on wu, but represents xia-ness - and, for that matter, other belief systems - in a cartoonishly simplistic way. This is what you've just observed.

I just want to see more flexibility in creative writing. I don't like genres and boundaries. I believe we should be able to construct multi-dimensional stories without adhering to a strict code of what we must or must not do.

I'm all for flexibility. I'm not demanding that writers *must* write wuxia (or any other genre) in precisely the way that I described; rather, I'm just pointing out what opportunities the genre offers. If a writer is such a genius that genre can be transcended, great; if not, then it's a challenging enough task to write either a well-executed piece of straightforward genre fiction or a story that shows a clever engagement with one's genre. My comments on wuxia were about the latter.