Yeung Hong: life choices anticipated by his likely ancestor, Yeung 4 Long?

[Ken Cheng]

Although never stated outright, it is strongly implied in LOCH that Yeung Teet Sum was descended not only from General Yeung Tsoi Hing of the Southern Sung Dynasty, but also the famous Yeung Family Corps of the Northern Sung Dynasty, who had fought against the Khitan and Hsi Hsia states a century or so before LOCH.

According to one version of the Yeung Family Corps legend, Yeung 4 Long was wounded in combat against the Khitan, taken as a prisoner of war by the Khitan, nursed back to health by a Khitan princess with whom he predictably became smitten, and ultimately defected to the Khitan side, thus becoming a traitor to his country and his family.

Maybe Yeung Hong in LOCH was following the precedent established by his ancestor. The Yeung Family Corps mostly produced valiant heroes, but once in a while, it produced a traitor.

Notably, both characters were portrayed by actor Miu Kiu Wai for TVB during the 1980s.

[flyingfox2002]

Although never stated outright, it is strongly implied in LOCH that Yeung Teet Sum was descended not only from General Yeung Tsoi Hing of the Southern Sung Dynasty, but also the famous Yeung Family Corps of the Northern Sung Dynasty, who had fought against the Khitan and Hsi Hsia states a century or so before LOCH.

Ken, sometimes you make statements like they are facts - 'facts' in terms of being true in the JY universe - when there simply are no evidence in JY's texts to support said statements. I guess perhaps you heard this from someone. There's simply no mention of Yang Ye's (Yeung Yip) family in LOCH. It's certainly not "strongly implied"

PS, if there is such a mention in the 3rd edition, then I stand corrected.

[Ken Cheng]

Ken, sometimes you make statements like they are facts - 'facts' in terms of being true in the JY universe - when there simply are no evidence in JY's texts to support said statements. I guess perhaps you heard this from someone. There's simply no mention of Yang Ye's (Yeung Yip) family in LOCH. It's certainly not "strongly implied"

A patriotic Han Chinese family of the Sung Dynasty surnamed "Yeung," noted for a spearfighting technique that bears their family name...to the point that one of the strokes of the technique is "Returning Horse Spear," a name also associated with the Yeung Family Corps of the early Sung Dynasty.

The implication is there, even if it isn't on the level of scientific evidence.

[flyingfox2002]

Yang Zai Xing is not related to the Yangs of the Yang Family Saga.

Besides, the Yang family saga is 90% fictional. I realize that LOCH is fictional too, but you still can't just throw a bunch of people together just because they have the same surname and reputed to have used a spear.

JY has been known to incorporate folklore into his novel as historical 'fact,' thus he is pretty liberal in regards to bending history to his will. If he does not mention the Yang family, which he easily could have, then we as readers have to assume that there is no connection there.

[Ken Cheng]

Yang Zai Xing is not related to the Yangs of the Yang Family Saga.

Officially, no...but the way that Jin Yong described Yeung Teet Sum's spear technique suggests that the author was attempting to plant the implication of some kind of connection...one that Jin Yong could plausibily deny later if he so preferred, but which readers could pick up on nonetheless.

I believe Jin Yong planted this seed for fans to interpret either way, and he would neither confirm nor deny it.

[Ken Cheng]

Besides, the Yang family saga is 90% fictional. I realize that LOCH is fictional too, but you still can't just throw a bunch of people together just because they have the same surname and reputed to have used a spear.

Don't you think it's TOO MUCH of a coincidence, though? Not only are the surname, the family profession, and the preferred weapon the same, but the technique for using the weapon even bears the same name.

It's easier to believe that there is a connection that there not being one based on the information given.

[Ren Ying Ying]

the best choice is to stay out of it

[Ren Ying Ying]

Yang Zai Xing is not related to the Yangs of the Yang Family Saga.

actually, I thought I read somewhere that Yang Zai Xing was like a 9th generation descendent of the Yang Family (or something like that)

but then again, not everything on the internet can be trusted

[flyingfox2002]

actually, I thought I read somewhere that Yang Zai Xing was like a 9th generation descendent of the Yang Family (or something like that)

but then again, not everything on the internet can be trusted

It's one of the many "legends" surrounding the Yang family. There is just too much folklore mixed in with history. For example, no one believes me that Yang Zong Bao never existed because everyone is accustomed to the legend of YZB being Yang 6 Lang's son. In fact, Y6L's son was Yang Wen Guang, Y6L's supposed grandson in the better known version (i.e. fake version) of their history.

Don't you think it's TOO MUCH of a coincidence, though? Not only are the surname, the family profession, and the preferred weapon the same, but the technique for using the weapon even bears the same name.

No, I don't even see it as a coincidence. First, there have been millions of people with the Yang surname in history. Second, the spear is a common weapon for use in battle so there have probably been hundreds of Yangs at least who have used a spear in battle (more likely, in the thousands). Third, I have seen no credible record stating that the Yangs actually had a technique called the hui ma qiang (wui ma cheung). It's again just part of folklore.

It's easier to believe that there is a connection that there not being one based on the information given.

Information from where?
What was only said in LOCH is that Yang Zai Xing, the verified (in terms of the JY universe) ancestor of Yang Tie Xin, did have wui ma cheung as a move. You cannot (or rather, should not) combine info from one source of fiction with info from other, disparate, sources of fiction, and jump to conclusions.

[Suet Seung]

Wasn't Yang Zai Xing, the follower of Yue Fei, who learned the spear from Yue Fei or is that more myth and legends? Jin Yong then wrote Yue Fei was the ancestor of Yue BuQun and his family.

Never mind, Just didn't bother reading Ken's first post. Heh. That's a first.

[endo]

chapter 1 translation....JY is trying to make the connection of Yeung Teet Sum having some sort of ancestral connection to the Northern Sung Yang Family

"Yang Tiexin has worked hard with this spear since he was a little kid and had fully received his
father's skills. The ‘Yang Family Spear’ is nothing to scoff at. Years back, Yang Zaixin took a spear
and three hundred Song soldiers into battle against forty thousand Jin soldiers at the Little Merchant
Bridge. In the battle, they killed more than two thousand Jin soldiers, not to mention one
commander of ten thousand men, as well as more than one hundred commanders of one thousand
men and one hundred men. Actually, the Jin arrows came flying in like rain; as soon as he was hit
by an arrow he would break the wooden part off and keep on fighting. At last his horse got tripped
up in mud and he finally gave his life for his country. When the Jin army burned his body, the
amount of melted metal from the arrowheads topped an amazing two jins [1kg / 2.2lbs]. This battle
shocked and frightened the Jin army and made the ‘Yang Family Spear’ famous in all of China.

Although Yang Tiexin is not as great as his forefathers, he does almost fully understand the spear
skill inside out. So there he is, parrying, thrusting, swinging, flicking, blocking, fending, and
obstructing. The point of the spear flashed silver, the tassel blurred red. What a spear skill!

Yang Tiexin pulled out all the stops and his moves were swift and agile, changing and faking as if
they were an illusion. But the Taoist's body followed the spear around, easily dodging forward and
back, making him almost impossible to hit. After using all seventy-two moves of the ‘Yang Family
Spear’, Yang Tiexin couldn't help but be anxious and upset. He turned around and walked away
carrying the spear backwards. As expected, the Taoist started to chase very close behind. Yang
Tiexin let out a big shout, held the spear with both hands, suddenly twisted his waist and extended
his arms, and thrust the spear back right at the Taoist's face. This move was ferocious, for it is the
move in ‘Yang Family Spear’ that is used to break an enemy formation and kill enemy generals,
called the “Return Horse Spear”. Back before Yang Zaixin changed his allegiance to the Song army,
when he battled Yue Fei, he used this exact move to kill Yue Fei's younger brother Yue Fan.

...

The Taoist smiled and said: "You are really using the ‘Yang Family Spear’. Sorry for any offense.
Please honor me with knowing your surname." Yang Tiexin still hadn't recovered from the shock of
all this, so he replied without much thought: "My surname is Yang, given name is Tiexin." The
Taoist asked: "Are you related to General Yang, Yang Zaixin?" Yang Tiexin answered: "He's my
great grandfather."

[flyingfox2002]

Note that it is said that in that battle Yang Zai Xing MADE the "yang family spear' famous, if he was a descendent of the Yang family, then it would have already been well known or he would have AGAIN made it famous. Second, as I have said several times, no where is there any mention of THE famous Yang family of legend. Also note that ANY family named Yang would be called the 'yang family.' What else do you think a technique used especially by someone named Yang would be called?

The first time I read LOCH, I had assumed that YZX was a descendent of the legendary Yangs too because 1) that family was so famous, and 2) it was an easy slam for JY to make the connection, but after reading that passage in LOCH several times and being on the lookout for any valid connection in the novel, and reading historical accounts that admittedly aren't very reliable but still more reliable than folklore, I don't believe YZX is from the same family because there simply isn't any connection in history or mention in the novel (which would only establish a fictional connection anyway).

Also, I don't believe Yang 4 Lang was even an actual person and it's probably 100% certain that no son of Yang Ye's ever married some princess in a rival country. Yang Ye did have another son who died in battled but his name was Yang Yan Yu (Jade). NOTE: YYY was not even one of Yang Ye's sons in the fictional Yang Family Saga, giving you an idea of how credible that legend was.

Now that I think about it, JY did have limits as to how he "rewrote" history in his novels. As liberal as he was, he still tried to feature actual historical figures or figures that very likely did exist. For example, if he were to feature a Yang Zong Bao, that would be too much.