Huang Rong's real martial arts level

[tape]

One thing you should consider is that happened about a month after she had given birth, and the child birth must've weakened her tremendously and she hadn't fully recovered yet. Didn't stop her from defeating LMC though, which showed that she really had become a very formidable fighter in RoCH.

Another thing is that the novel said 功力 (canto: Gung Lik; mando: Gong Li), which isn't always the same as inner power. It is sometimes but it depends on context. In this case I'd rather interpret it as palm strength as she was attacking w/ her palm.

Speaking of inner power, what are your thoughts on Guo Jing's inner power compared to say, Qiu Chuji, during LOCH? At what point do you think he overtook him? Is it possible that by the end of LOCH, Qiu Chuji/Ma Yu still had greater or comparable inner power to Guo Jing? It's something I've always wondered, as they've been cultivating Quanzhen inner power for 20+ years while Guo Jing had a mere 2-3 years during the span of LOCH.

Guo Jing had much better fighting skills, much better technique, and the much more advanced martial theory, so he utilized his inner power to the fullest while perhaps they only unlocked a small fraction of their own. Perhaps this is why Ma Yu/Qiu Chuji are touted as having really high inner power/martial arts during ROCH, though I'm not quite sure what the point of those statements are if they aren't using it half as well as someone else and inferior in every aspect -- it'd be misleading.

Just a theory that I've had. We see Wuji unable to unlock his 9 Yang to it's full extent without a powerful enabler, perhaps the Quanzhen people (and all the old people that are described to have deep inner power and losing to young people) are just not using their inner power effectively.

[Kenny]

Speaking of inner power, what are your thoughts on Guo Jing's inner power compared to say, Qiu Chuji, during LOCH? At what point do you think he overtook him?

This is a tough question as JY didn't exactly tell us specifically how much GJ's inner power improved at each stage of the story. We can gauge how much he improved his overall fighting ability, yes, but not specifically his inner strength.

I can tell you that when both the North Beggar and West Poison went to Peach Blossoms Island to arrange for HR's marriage, GJ's inner power at that point was definitely stronger than Ouyang Ke's, but this alone doesn't mean much as I think QCJ's too was stronger than OYK's. If his inner power wasn't stronger than QCJ's by then, he should be very close to surpassing him. But it's just my opinion.

And when GJ met Qiu Qianren for the first time, at the Beggars Union meeting. QQR thought his inner power was only better than GJ's by "半籌", exactly how much that is.. I don't know. I interpret it as "half a class," which means GJ was really close to QQR and should have surpassed QCJ by then.

So while I can't tell you exactly when GJ surpassed QCJ, it should happened between these two events, and probably closer to the first than to the second.

Is it possible that by the end of LOCH, Qiu Chuji/Ma Yu still had greater or comparable inner power to Guo Jing?

At that point, it's almost certain that GJ's inner power was stronger than Ma Yu's/Qiu Chuji's, as he had benefited greatly from 9Yin.

It's something I've always wondered, as they've been cultivating Quanzhen inner power for 20+ years while Guo Jing had a mere 2-3 years during the span of LOCH.

The number of years of practice is a factor, but there are others that affect how fast you'll improve. The type of inner power you're learning, how good your teacher is, and your personality and talents, among other things, all contribute to how fast you learn.

Guo Jing had much better fighting skills, much better technique, and the much more advanced martial theory, so he utilized his inner power to the fullest while perhaps they only unlocked a small fraction of their own. Perhaps this is why Ma Yu/Qiu Chuji are touted as having really high inner power/martial arts during ROCH, though I'm not quite sure what the point of those statements are if they aren't using it half as well as someone else and inferior in every aspect -- it'd be misleading.

Just a theory that I've had. We see Wuji unable to unlock his 9 Yang to it's full extent without a powerful enabler, perhaps the Quanzhen people (and all the old people that are described to have deep inner power and losing to young people) are just not using their inner power effectively.

True. It's possible that they had stronger inner power than they seemed because of a lack of effective skills, but it's really hard to say for sure based on what little info we have about these supporting characters. And efficiency isn't talked about often enough in the novels.

[PJ]

Didn't stop her from defeating LMC though, which showed that she really had become a very formidable fighter in RoCH.

I would agree that HR is a little better than LMC. Doesn't change the notion that she is far behind Great level though, as LMC's MA is just at the level of the weakest of Huang Yaoshi's disciples (Feng Mofeng).

Another thing is that the novel said 功力 (canto: Gung Lik; mando: Gong Li), which isn't always the same as inner power. It is sometimes but it depends on context. In this case I'd rather interpret it as palm strength as she was attacking w/ her palm.

This is true.

[IronPalmQiu]

Hi Guys! This is my first post here. Stumbled upon this forum today by pure chance.

Ken Cheng wrote:
Given that the Golden Wheel Monk had only recently arrived in the Central Plains after having spent his entire life up to that point in Tibet and/or Mongolia, there must have been many martial arts techniques that he hadn't seen before.

I would like to point out that in ROCH, prior to Huo Du's match with Zhu Ziliu at the Heroes' Meet (Chapter 12), it was mentioned that Golden Wheel Monk was well-versed about the martial arts in China. He had specifically taught Huo Du how to counter the techniques of the orthodox schools in China, before allowing him to wreck havoc in China. Huo Du, was thus stumped, when Zhu Ziliu used a giant ink brush as a weapon, which was highly unorthodox.

Kenny wrote:
And when GJ met Qiu Qianren for the first time, at the Beggars Union meeting. QQR thought his inner power was only better than GJ's by "半籌", exactly how much that is.. I don't know. I interpret it as "half a class," which means GJ was really close to QQR and should have surpassed QCJ by then.

Personally, I think Jin Yong's gauging of various levels of the martial arts expert is seriously way off. The math simply doesn't add up, regardless of how he directly or indirectly compares one martial artist to another.

At the Beggars' Union encounter, Guo Jing was supposed to be "半籌" behind Qiu Qian Ren. From that incident to Hua Shan Meet, Guo Jing made several breakthoughs in his martial arts
- Rev YiDeng explaining the last segment of JiuYin ZhenJing
- Ouyang Feng's "intensive 1-to-1 coaching" near Samarkand

Yet after all these breakthroughs, Guo Jing was still depicted to be inferior to Qiu Qian Ren, as mentioned in the 4-man-fight (Guo-Ouyang-Zhou-Qiu) in the abandoned village near Samarkand. So, it appears that the "半籌" here is a very very big gap.

In LOCH, Qiu Qian Ren is depicted as equal in ability as Zhou Botong. He only loses out when Zhou Botong uses his self-invented "Left-Right" technique, which started the chasing contest from Iron Palm Peak to Samarkand. This gives the impression that once Zhou Botong executes his special technique, Qiu Qian Ren is clearly "一筹" behind. The same "一筹" is hinted when comparing Zhou Botong to the surviving 4 Greats; that prior to his "Left-Right" and "Jiu Yin Zhen Jing" power-ups, he too, is "一筹" behind the 4 of them. Same comparison is made when Huang Yaoshi said Ouyang Feng is "一筹" behind him when his "Toad Skill" got neutralized by Wang Zhong Yang (Incident where Huang Yao Shi & wife tricked Zhou Botong of his 2nd half of Jiu Yin Zhen Jing manual)

bpeh123 wrote:
I think it is very hard to gauge where her level is coz she doesnt show off much. I agree that someone with low internal doesnt mean they are inferior. LHC and XLN proves low internal can win elite fighters as well.

It is actually impossible to guage. Sadly, the outcome of the bout depends a lot more on how the author wants the story to develop.

In LOCH, at the Beggars' Union, Guo Jing assessed that Elder Jian was much better than Huang Rong. Yet, Huang Rong won the bout convincingly, due to much superior techique from the Dog-Beating Stick technique.

In ROCH, Huo Du was assessed as clearly better than Yang Guo, both in inner energy and "actual martial arts skill". Yet, Yang Guo was winning for most of the encounter, thanks to better technique and also relying on Jade Bee needles.

In ROCH, Golden Wheel monk was assessed as equal to Guo Jing for at least the first 1000 strokes. Yet Golden Wheel monk was theorectically defeated by Little Dragon Lady at the Chong Yang Temple. Little Dragon Lady drew first blood by cutting the Golden Wheel monk, thanks to her learning the "Left-Right" technique from Zhou Botong. In most friendly bouts, the first person to draw blood wins.

The same happens when Yang Guo posed as a priest of Quanzhen and beats off two level-5beggars in front of Li Mochou (Chapter 9). Yet, he assessed himself as not equal to even 1 of the Level-5 beggar, in terms of actual ability.

It appears that comparison between actual ability and winning are two completely separate issues in Jin Yong's world, even though in an actual duel, the winner is a the person with better skill, be it winning by fair or foul means.

But the stories are a nice read though.

[Kenny]

Hi Guys! This is my first post here. Stumbled upon this forum today by pure chance.

Welcome to the forum!

Personally, I think Jin Yong's gauging of various levels of the martial arts expert is seriously way off. The math simply doesn't add up, regardless of how he directly or indirectly compares one martial artist to another.

At the Beggars' Union encounter, Guo Jing was supposed to be "半籌" behind Qiu Qian Ren. From that incident to Hua Shan Meet, Guo Jing made several breakthoughs in his martial arts
- Rev YiDeng explaining the last segment of JiuYin ZhenJing
- Ouyang Feng's "intensive 1-to-1 coaching" near Samarkand

Yet after all these breakthroughs, Guo Jing was still depicted to be inferior to Qiu Qian Ren, as mentioned in the 4-man-fight (Guo-Ouyang-Zhou-Qiu) in the abandoned village near Samarkand. So, it appears that the "半籌" here is a very very big gap.

Actually, during the Beggars Union meeting, JY wrote that GJ's inner power was 半籌 (probably half a class) weaker than QQR's, whereas during the 4-man fight he wrote that GJ's overall martial arts level was getting really close to the other 3 fighters. Jin Yong was talking about 2 different things (inner power and overall fighting ability) in these two scenes, so I don't think there's much of a problem there.

I do agree with you that the way JY described the fighters' strength sometimes seemed to contradict with other facts in the novel. That's because JY at times liked to temporarily overrate/underrate a fighter just to keep the fights more interesting, or to create a stronger sense of urgency. The interesting thing here is after the overrating/underrating comment had done serving its purpose, JY always followed up with some counter-balancing events to give the readers a better sense of the fighters' true strength.

A couple examples I can think of:
1) During the Hero's Banquet in RoCH, the Golden Wheel Monk was introduced as someone who could possibly challenge the Greats. This is so the readers would think there's a danger of the Wulin Leader title falling into a foreign invader's hands. But then JY counter-balanced it by letting every Monk's subsequent mission end in failure, including losing several important fights he was involved in. In my opinion, the pre-16-year GWM was probably no stronger than QQR, but what kind of reaction would the readers get if JY told us during the Banquet that "this GWM is strong, but he really isn't much of a threat to GJ"?

2) When Xiao Feng fought against the Ironhead and Murong Fu, JY wrote that XF had problems fighting the other 2 men, and that XF thought he might eventually run out of inner strength. Obviously, JY was trying to create an epic fight here involving the 3 brothers and their respective rival, and he had to underrate XF for the other brothers to step in. It wouldn't be as fun if XF could defeat those 2 men plus Ding Chun Qiu all by himself, would it? And sure enough, as soon as the build-up was over, JY re-balanced the fighters' relative strengths again, telling us how those 2 men were strong together only because MRF's technique and the Ironhead's inner power complement each other well. JY showed us that, individually, neither was a match for XF when he broke the Ironhead's legs within a few moves, and how he was confident enough to plan to defeat MRF within 10 moves.

Some readers like to (mis)use that one line to conclude that XF wasn't much stronger than MRF, but what we really should do is to consider all facts and information given to us as a whole, and not to pick out some isolated sentence and make bold claims using it. Also, (like PJ said in another post,) we have to keep the author's intent and motive in mind when we're analyzing. Sorry for the rant.

Now, let's go back to the Beggar Union meeting. JY needed a plot device to convincingly fend QQR off, and none of the Beggar Elders was strong enough to do it. So JY made GJ seem stronger, but like in the other cases, JY followed up with a counter-balance. When GJ met QQR again the next day, JY wrote that GJ could only fend QQR off during the meeting because studying the Northstar formation allowed him to gain a more efficient use of his inner power, but by brute force GJ was still some way off QQR's level.

It is actually impossible to guage. Sadly, the outcome of the bout depends a lot more on how the author wants the story to develop.

In LOCH, at the Beggars' Union, Guo Jing assessed that Elder Jian was much better than Huang Rong. Yet, Huang Rong won the bout convincingly, due to much superior techique from the Dog-Beating Stick technique.

In ROCH, Huo Du was assessed as clearly better than Yang Guo, both in inner energy and "actual martial arts skill". Yet, Yang Guo was winning for most of the encounter, thanks to better technique and also relying on Jade Bee needles.

These two examples show that the stronger fighters don't always win. And I think that makes sense.

Just like in sports where upsets are regular occurance, fights in JY novels are no different.

The same happens when Yang Guo posed as a priest of Quanzhen and beats off two level-5beggars in front of Li Mochou (Chapter 9). Yet, he assessed himself as not equal to even 1 of the Level-5 beggar, in terms of actual ability.

They were 8-Bagged Beggars. And they were only stronger than YG in inner power, (which makes sense,) but YG's techniques were better.

這兩名八袋老丐練功數十年，均是內力深湛，在江湖上已是少逢敵手，要論武功底子，實是遠勝楊過，只是論到招 數的奇巧奧妙，卻又不及。

[IronPalmQiu]

Kenny wrote:
I do agree with you that the way JY described the fighters' strength sometimes seemed to contradict with other facts in the novel. That's because JY at times liked to temporarily overrate/underrate a fighter just to keep the fights more interesting, or to create a stronger sense of urgency. The interesting thing here is after the overrating/underrating comment had done serving its purpose, JY always followed up with some counter-balancing events to give the readers a better sense of the fighters' true strength.

I agree. Thanks for the elaboration. I think this will help Jin Yong readers understand the stories better.

Here is an example of re-balancing:

In Return of the Condor Heroes, one-armed Yang Guo defeats Qiu Qianren after around 100 strokes in a winter fight. [Chapter 30] Shortly before this battle in Chapter 29, Yang Guo narrowly beat Golden Wheel Monk, thanks to Little Dragon Lady's interference. This close match set the standard to where Yang Guo's and Golden Wheel Monk's skills are at.

In Chapter 34, after 16 years, when both Yang Guo and Golden Wheel Monk have both made significant overall improvements, Golden Wheel Monk takes 1 day 1 night of fighting to fatally wound Qiu Qian Ren. It's a big contrast to Yang Guo defeating the same guy in over 100 strokes.

A good example of rebalancing of Qiu Qian Ren here, who is supposed to be close to the standard of the 4 Greats.

During the Hero's Banquet in RoCH, the Golden Wheel Monk was introduced as someone who could possibly challenge the Greats. This is so the readers would think there's a danger of the Wulin Leader title falling into a foreign invader's hands. But then JY counter-balanced it by letting every Monk's subsequent mission end in failure, including losing several important fights he was involved in. In my opinion, the pre-16-year GWM was probably no stronger than QQR, but what kind of reaction would the readers get if JY told us during the Banquet that "this GWM is strong, but he really isn't much of a threat to GJ"?

This is a very good example, which I was pondering upon, while re-reading "Return of the Condor Heroes".

The Golden Wheel Monk was hyped up several times before and during the Heroes' Meet. His most impressive moments was him, as a virtual unknown in China, directly exchanging two blows with Guo Jing's 18 Dragon Palms, and still standing tall after that.

I was quite disappointed by his several failures, which like you said, were re-balancing. Some really serious re-balancing moments were him getting smacked on the shin by Yang Guo's newly improved Dog-beating Stick (considered technically as a lost for a friendly bout), getting punched in the back of the head by Ma Guang Ruo (comic moment) [Chapter 20] and even thought himself, despite being the superior fighter, to be losing against Nimoxing's unorthodox technique of using a boulder as weapon [Chapter 20]

[tape]

I've always thought the overall details of a scene, intent of an event, and various interactions with characters and history that transpired all should play a role in analyzing what happened during a fight and how powerful a character is. I like the term "rebalancing" to kind of describe all of that.

It was always a bit irking when "novel evidence" is presented in the form of a direct quote and it being forced to be taken as an absolute, even though the same sentence can have a completely different meaning depending on the overall tone of the passage.

Things don't need to directly happen or need to be directly said in order for certain conclusions to be achieved. Conversely, things that do happen and are directly said, may still lead to inconclusive results. It just forces more careful reading and more intelligent debate which is great.

[tape]

The above being said, it does lead to certain questions that are made a bit harder to answer. For example, the prowess of Golden Wheel Monk -- did JY mean for readers to interpret his fighting mentality as terrible and as a choke artist, or is that an untended effect from having a powerful antagonist being forced to lose on multiple occasions due to plot driven reasons?

Another problem with rebalancing is that I think I with our knowledge of LOCH, we can safely gauge that someone like QQR in LOCH was meant to be only slightly inferior to the Greats, but has to be shown as weaker due to protagonist encounters. But some things such as the fight at Beggar's Meeting is almost TOO internally inconsistent even with all the events happening in Guo Jing's favor. At that point, I don't think it's reasonable for QQR to be stopped by Guo Jing (especially in a palm clash) considering their disparity in power. Guo Jing, after massive improvement, and with the 6 Quanzhen priests backing him up using the Big Dipper Formation, is only then able to stand toe to toe with Huang Yaoshi months later and just days ago he was surprised he could even dodge a full powered Ouyang Feng blast.

[Ken Cheng]

I like this theory of rebalancing, but doesn't it create a domino effect of problems when comparing fighters? Certainly, the character who is being subjected to the rebalancing sustains a change to his/her reputation as a fighter, but doesn't this change also extend to his/her opponent, and that opponent's other opponents?

Additionally, it seems that rebalancing inordinately affects villains.

[IronPalmQiu]

I like this theory of rebalancing, but doesn't it create a domino effect of problems when comparing fighters? Certainly, the character who is being subjected to the rebalancing sustains a change to his/her reputation as a fighter, but doesn't this change also extend to his/her opponent, and that opponent's other opponents?

Additionally, it seems that rebalancing inordinately affects villains.

Rebalancing also affects the good guys.

The "Big Dipper" formation is used on a few occasions in LOCH. Prior to its appearance, good guys like Qiu Chuji and Ma Yu appeared to be fairly good, or at least above average. Yet, when compared to the 4 Greats, they appeared as helpless as babes. It is quite hard to imagine 7 above-average fighters getting creamed by 1 Great without being able to put up much of a fight. Yet, that happened in the Niu Village when Huang Yaoshi slapped the 7 Quanzhen priests around. They would have been totally hammered if not for Huang's overconfidence, which allowed them finally to get into the "Big Dipper" formation.

While the intent of the author was the make the "Big Dipper" very powerful, or anti-Great weapon, it at at the same time, made the 7 individual members look mediocre.

After Tan Chu-duan died, the remaining 6 Quanzhen priests were completely outmatched against Ouyang Feng or Huang Yaoshi at the Mid-Autumn duel. It kinda meant that without any special formation, 1 Great was definitely 7x better than a Qiu Chuji or Ma Yu. So, did Guo Jing's overall skill, internal energy, martial arts, etc etc, increase by 7x, to be in order to last 300 blows with the Greats?

It was kinda strange that sheer numbers of average fighters made no difference when fighting against a Great. I was kinda thinking of the early bout between Qiu Chuji and the 7 Freaks, where Qiu Chuji eventually felt the disadvantage of 1 man vs 7, despite him being much better than any individual freak.

[Western Eccentric]

- HR stick was crushed by Jinlun in 1 stance
- HYS 1st mention for central side of New 5 Greats is XLN no HR
So HR real martial art skill perhaps around GSZ which except Greats/Jinlun/QQR/XLN no one could beat her..

[Ken Cheng]

- HR stick was crushed by Jinlun in 1 stance

As was Yeung Gor's ordinary sword. Golden Wheel Monk was nothing if not extraordinarily strong, so it isn't too surprising he'd shatter any weapon that isn't super-reinforced such as the Heavy Iron Sword.

- HYS 1st mention for central side of New 5 Greats is XLN no HR

Ultimately, neither one quite qualified. Besides, etiquette-wise, it'd be a bit of a faux-pas to name one's own flesh and blood a Great when it's not abundantly evident that she qualifies.

So HR real martial art skill perhaps around GSZ which except Greats/Jinlun/QQR/XLN no one could beat her..

I put Wong Yung's martial arts at the end of ROCH as somewhere between end-of-LOCH Gwok Jing's level and LOCH Greats level. Little Dragon Girl might be a hair higher than that (but conditional on whether she has blades in hand).

[Western Eccentric]

As was Yeung Gor's ordinary sword. Golden Wheel Monk was nothing if not extraordinarily strong, so it isn't too surprising he'd shatter any weapon that isn't super-reinforced such as the Heavy Iron Sword.



Ultimately, neither one quite qualified. Besides, etiquette-wise, it'd be a bit of a faux-pas to name one's own flesh and blood a Great when it's not abundantly evident that she qualifies.



I put Wong Yung's martial arts at the end of ROCH as somewhere between end-of-LOCH Gwok Jing's level and LOCH Greats level. Little Dragon Girl might be a hair higher than that (but conditional on whether she has blades in hand).

But 2 of Jinlun's wheel also "dropped" and hit 2 Mongolian soldier under tower so there is different with Jinlun vs HR at Passionless Valley and I don't think HR around LOCH GJ since during 16 years ROCH GJ seems not "improve" so much so it's hard to believe pre 16 years HR which around LMC level "slam dunk" to LOCH GJ level at the end of ROCH/post 16 years..

[Ken Cheng]

But 2 of Jinlun's wheel also "dropped" and hit 2 Mongolian soldier under tower so there is different with Jinlun vs HR at Passionless Valley and I don't think HR around LOCH GJ since during 16 years ROCH GJ seems not "improve" so much so it's hard to believe pre 16 years HR which around LMC level "slam dunk" to LOCH GJ level at the end of ROCH/post 16 years..

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[Western Eccentric]

Well let's say HR "real" kungfu level pre 16 years (non pregnat state) at Lv 55 (on par with GSZ/YX) and LOCH GJ at Lv 65 (on par with Du Monk/DYQ) the difference is 10 level but We all know even YG/Jinlun which train very very hard in 16 years only increase 5-7 level so how can HR got 10 level during 16 years since she is too "busy" to defend Xiangyang and if HR could improve that much GJ should be (logically) improve more "extreme" than HR but at end of ROCH he is still "on par" with the other Greats/Jinlun..

[Ken Cheng]

Well let's say HR "real" kungfu level pre 16 years (non pregnat state) at Lv 55 (on par with GSZ/YX) and LOCH GJ at Lv 65 (on par with Du Monk/DYQ) the difference is 10 level but We all know even YG/Jinlun which train very very hard in 16 years only increase 5-7 level so how can HR got 10 level during 16 years since she is too "busy" to defend Xiangyang and if HR could improve that much GJ should be (logically) improve more "extreme" than HR but at end of ROCH he is still "on par" with the other Greats/Jinlun..

I attribute Gwok Jing's greater gains to his thorough understanding and active training in the 9 Yum Jen Ging. Wong Yung didn't train as diligently in the 9 Yum Jen Ging as her husband did. The 9 Yum Jen Ging had this incredible property wherein after you've trained up to a certain level, you continue gaining passively even when you sleep. Gwok Jing, I believe, attained this level, but I cannot say that Wong Yung did.

[Western Eccentric]

Nach HR perhaps "improve" during 16 years but not much coz if she did GJ should be far better than her and anybody in ROCH..

[Ken Cheng]

Nach HR perhaps "improve" during 16 years but not much coz if she did GJ should be far better than her and anybody in ROCH..

Not necessarily. People's martial arts grow at different rates. At the time that young Gwok Jing and Wong Yung met in LOCH, her martial arts were much better than his. By the end, he was considerably stronger than her.

[Western Eccentric]

Well then how about GJ "improve"/progressing rate during 16 years ROCH faster or slower or equal with HR coz We know even at the end of ROCH GJ seems still "on par" with Greats/Jinlun/YG..