The LOCH "first martial arts teacher" generation - your preference?

[Ken Cheng]

Precisely (sorry, I edited my previous post prior to yours), That's why they shld have focused on GWM and gang rather than her. Rash and muddle headed.

Put yourself in the Taoists' position.

1. You know nothing about one of your own, who has always been trustworthy and virtuous for decades up to now, having raped a woman. You couldn't have known. Why would you have suspected? Who would have told you?

2. Said woman belongs to a sect known to have a list of unreasonable grievances against your sect, and has in the past slandered your sect founder for any number of supposed slights.

3. Said woman comes accusing said member of your sect of rape, which happens to be true, but for which she supplies no evidence other than her word.

4. Said woman comes armed with swords and is making threats and behaving belligerently on your home territory.

5. At the same time she's there, there's also a group of Mongolian warriors there also looking for trouble.

Without the benefit of omniscient readerview, what would YOU think?

It's so easy to Monday morning quarterback this, but what if you were actually one of the Taoists there? Would you actually give this threatening woman time to explain herself? She has swords drawn on your people at your home! If she's got a legitimate grievance to air, she'd better put down the weapons first.

"Helpless victim" my left knee.

[shen diao xia]

Ignorance can never be an excuse for regretable acts.

I'll pretend to be in the Taoists shoes if you can do the same for XLN.

Assuming that I am "enlightened" with the training and MA skills, I sincerely believe that I will not react as such when the deed is already done (meaning ZZB in his half dead state). Ganging up against a lone woman is also not something that I will do, particularly when she wasn't much of a threat at that point. Remember, she did not kill any of the Taoists. Muddle headed QCJ got angry due to the loss of his beloved student and the fact that despite spending a long time coming up with MA to counter the Ancient Tombs', he still failed.

Your turn...on how does it feel to be bullied by a group of gorillas.

[Ken Cheng]

Ignorance can never be an excuse for regretable acts.

Who needs excuses?

Little Dragon Girl lost her "helpless victim" claim the moment she pulled a sword on the Taoists at the Chung Yeung Temple.

Yan Tze Bing raped her, not the entire Cheun Jen Sect.

She should have settled the score with him, one-on-one, back at Seung Yeung, on the long road back from Seung Yeung to Mt. Chung Nam, or at the Mongol base camp (well, that one might have been a bit tough with the Golden Wheel Monk around).

Instead, she charges right into Chung Yeung Temple in a certifiably menacing manner, and you think she should have gotten kid gloves?

Color me unsympathetic.

Assuming that I am "enlightened" with the training and MA skills, I sincerely believe that I will not react as such when the deed is already done (meaning ZZB in his half dead state).

"Enlightened" does not mean "omniscient." The way Little Dragon Girl was behaving at the Chung Yeung Temple, she gave no reason at all for the Taoists to give her the benefit of the doubt. Not one.

Ironically, she had the truth on her side, but going in the way she did wasn't going to help her cause at all, and it didn't.

Moreover, I think the girl seriously had a death wish going into this. I think she went up to the Temple making this huge scene because she *wanted* to die.

Ganging up against a lone woman is also not something that I will do, particularly when she wasn't much of a threat at that point.

Oh, please. Little Dragon Girl had just given the Mongol experts nearly as good a fight as Gwok Jing did. Up against that kind of threat, wouldn't you be wary?

Remember, she did not kill any of the Taoists.

Not yet, but her belligerent attitude didn't suggest that she'd come to the temple to reason with the Taoists.

Muddle headed QCJ got angry due to the loss of his beloved student

Wouldn't you? Yau Chui Gei must have been flabbergasted after learning that Yan Tze Bing had committed rape, but, "Heavens! She killed my student!" is naturally going to precede, "Heavens! Could it be? My student raped that woman?!"

Granted, Yau Chui Gei was not always a great decision-maker, but in light of everything that was going on at the Chung Yeung Temple that way, his course of action was entirely understandable.

the fact that despite spending a long time coming up with MA to counter the Ancient Tombs', he still failed.

What does that have to with anything? This thread began with the caveat that this isn't a comparison of martial arts skills.

Ancient Tomb Sect martial arts are the black star of Cheun Jen Sect martial arts. That's no bulletin.

Your turn...on how does it feel to be bullied by a group of gorillas.

If you stop mischaracterizing Little Dragon Girl as a victim of being "bullied," and stop mischaracterizing those Taoists who, as far as they understood, were defending their territory from a hostile invader, as "gorillas," maybe you'll get somewhere in this discussion.

As it is, I remain 100% unconvinced.

[shen diao xia]

Despite your inflexible anti XLN stance, QCJ is still muddle headed and does not deserve to be the head honcho of his sect at that point.

Change of strategy here....trying the "fighting fair and square and with honour" approach with you is obviously not getting anywhere...

If it was somebody like ZSF, some benevolent Shaolin monk or even Ma Yu, do you think things would have panned out the way it did?

[Ken Cheng]

Despite your inflexible anti XLN stance, QCJ is still muddle headed and does not deserve to be the head honcho of his sect at that point.

Who did, then? Wong Chui 1? Gok Dai Tung? Sheun But Yee? Lau Chui Yin? I don't know about Lau, but the other three also had spots on their records, and their martial arts were weaker to boot.

Change of strategy here....trying the "fighting fair and square and with honour" approach with you is obviously not getting anywhere...

People who invade homes and other sanctuaries with murderous intent should not be expecting a "fair" chance; they forfeit that as soon as they invade.

If Little Dragon Girl wanted "fair" and "honorable," she should have challenged her rapist, and ONLY him, to one-on-one when they were on neutral ground. *That* would have been fair and honorable.

She had her chance, but chose to do it the hard way.

If it was somebody like ZSF, some benevolent Shaolin monk or even Ma Yu, do you think things would have panned out the way it did?

Given the limited, faulty information at hand and the swirling chaos all around, totally.

[shen diao xia]

People who invade homes and other sanctuaries with murderous intent should not be expecting a "fair" chance; they forfeit that as soon as they invade.

Murderous intent or not, was decided by the ignorant Taoists. You're claiming that it is allright to strike first even if it is wrong as they found out later. Whatever, at the end of it, none of the Taoists were killed by her.

What does that have to with anything? This thread began with the caveat that this isn't a comparison of martial arts skills.

No, its not. My point was he was flabbergasted about his failure and wanted to get rid of her when he had the chance with so much help around.

Given the limited, faulty information at hand and the swirling chaos all around, totally.

Now, you are either escalating QCJ to the level of greats or demoting the greats to QCJ's level

[KeongJai]

I choose the 7 freaks because they are more understanding and "down to earth" even though they were weird.
But Master Ma or whoever the oldest QZ diciple is a better teacher.

[Ken Cheng]

Murderous intent or not, was decided by the ignorant Taoists. You're claiming that it is allright to strike first even if it is wrong as they found out later. Whatever, at the end of it, none of the Taoists were killed by her.

That was more an accident of unavailable opportunity rather than benevolent intent.

It's this simple: you go into someone else's territory with belligerent intent and behavior, and you get your butt kicked. To expect otherwise is lunacy.

No, its not. My point was he was flabbergasted about his failure and wanted to get rid of her when he had the chance with so much help around.

I don't believe this. Where is this intent manifest?

Now, you are either escalating QCJ to the level of greats or demoting the greats to QCJ's level

You're the one who introduced this comparison...and "Greats" is this forum's signifier for martial arts only, which we aren't even comparing in this discussion. Even the likes of West Poison Au Yeung Fung was a Great, for all that it was worth.

[shen diao xia]

OK, no love lost .

Remind me to pick a non YG/XLN related topic, next time we argue. You are really hell bent on justifying your position of not having lost any discussions aren't you?

Looks like I am not very good in my convincing skills. Nevertheless, its' been fun.

[Ken Cheng]

OK, no love lost .

*Sheathes sword*

For the record, I voted for the Gong Nam 7 Freaks.

As someone else said, seven personalities are always going to be more interesting than one, no matter who that one is.

But at least one person apparently found the Eternal Springs Taoist more interesting than the 7 Freaks.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Put yourself in the Taoists' position.

1. You know nothing about one of your own, who has always been trustworthy and virtuous for decades up to now, having raped a woman. You couldn't have known. Why would you have suspected? Who would have told you?

That's just called bad character judgement on your part. Whether it's Zhen Zhibing or Zhao Zhijing.

2. Said woman belongs to a sect known to have a list of unreasonable grievances against your sect, and has in the past slandered your sect founder for any number of supposed slights.

The AT kept to themselves. They didn't go around the lands slandering QZ.
Why should it matter to QZ/Qiu Chuji? They weren't the warmest neighbors, but they weren't actively "bad" (aside from the whole YG incident, which he knew partially that it was ZZJ's fault).
But, as far as the "slander" claim goes, did QCJ even know what the AT members told their students?

3. Said woman comes accusing said member of your sect of rape, which happens to be true, but for which she supplies no evidence other than her word.

XLN had not exchanged words w/ the QZ masters prior to that point. No words about rape entered QCJ/QZ master's ears until after YG had defeated GWM & co. QCJ was entirely unaware of the matter of rape when he initially attacked her.

4. Said woman comes armed with swords and is making threats and behaving belligerently on your home territory.

5. At the same time she's there, there's also a group of Mongolian warriors there also looking for trouble.

He just watched her battle the 5 top mongolian warriors. There's blood splattered all. It's clearly not a friendly match for fun between the girl and the 5 men. Are he that stupid that you cannot distinguish whether they are friends or foe? (QCJ perhaps is, i suppose)

of course, both might still be considered his enemy. but if he was a wise man, who should he have focus his attention on? the little girl or the horde of mongolians?

It's pretty clear QCJ attacked XLN for the greivence of his student. In that aspect, he is not completely w/o reason. Still, it seems he too little thought into his actions (like always).

No one argues that QCJ had evil intentions, but his rash actions can certainly be classified as stupid and fairly ignorant.

Not yet, but her belligerent attitude didn't suggest that she'd come to the temple to reason with the Taoists.

It's this simple: you go into someone else's territory with belligerent intent and behavior, and you get your butt kicked. To expect otherwise is lunacy.

Whether or not XLN deserved what she got does not excuse QCJ's ignorance & action.
Even if XLN was wrong & unreasonable (which she wasn't), to attack someone w/o clarifying the matter first is still a stupid decision on your part.

[CC]

I mean: how considerate would you be towards someone who rushed into your home with weapons drawn?

Well, if the person was as HOT as XLN was supposed to be, I wouldn't reach for the meat-cleaver just yet.

[leorio]

Well, if the person was as HOT as XLN was supposed to be, I wouldn't reach for the meat-cleaver just yet.

It's said that one of the requirements for a female spy is being beautiful, so she can easily charm the other side.

[Ken Cheng]

It's said that one of the requirements for a female spy is being beautiful, so she can easily charm the other side.

What if the target is a blind man, like Fa Mun Lau?

Of course, that didn't prevent Fa from being duped by Seung Gwoon Fei Yin.