Guo Jing an autistic savant?

[flyingfox2002]

I think JY just made young GJ's cognitive development so slow to stack the odds against GJ relative to YH. Here was the underdog born and raised in a hard life compared to a smart good looking kid born in a life of luxury, yet it is the underdog that achieves greatness and becomes a (fictional) historical hero. Perhaps it's a lesson in life JY intends his readers to learn.

In real life, a child who is unable to speak until 5 is severely retarded so severely mal-nourished. I dunno if there's ever been any child in real life whose initial cognitive development was so slow but still developed into a cognitively normal human being. By ROCH, GJ should no longer be described as "stupid."

[CFT]

In real life, a child who is unable to speak until 5 is severely retarded so severely mal-nourished. I dunno if there's ever been any child in real life whose initial cognitive development was so slow but still developed into a cognitively normal human being. By ROCH, GJ should no longer be described as "stupid."

I think Einstein was a late speaker - something like 5yrs old. The first thing he said was: "the soup is too hot" (or cold - can't remember which).

[flyingfox2002]

Oh yes you're right. I'd forgotten about Albert's exceptional case. But in Albert's case perhaps it was because he was too smart. Too many things going on in his mind.

[Extremer88]

I think JY just made young GJ's cognitive development so slow to stack the odds against GJ relative to YH. Here was the underdog born and raised in a hard life compared to a smart good looking kid born in a life of luxury, yet it is the underdog that achieves greatness and becomes a (fictional) historical hero. Perhaps it's a lesson in life JY intends his readers to learn.

I like this paragraph. Great analysis.

Life is unpredictable, nothing in future is certain, you can succeed even if you're slower, not that intelligent or not articulative than others - these seems to be what JY's thinking.

[author]

Here was the underdog born and raised in a hard life compared to a smart good looking kid born in a life of luxury, yet it is the underdog that achieves greatness and becomes a (fictional) historical hero.

ahem... sorry. no offence, but one of those reactions, you see....

Aye, (fictional) historial hero indeed. totally 101 % agreement....

[sniffles]

I think JY just made young GJ's cognitive development so slow to stack the odds against GJ relative to YH. Here was the underdog born and raised in a hard life compared to a smart good looking kid born in a life of luxury, yet it is the underdog that achieves greatness and becomes a (fictional) historical hero. Perhaps it's a lesson in life JY intends his readers to learn.

In real life, a child who is unable to speak until 5 is severely retarded so severely mal-nourished. I dunno if there's ever been any child in real life whose initial cognitive development was so slow but still developed into a cognitively normal human being. By ROCH, GJ should no longer be described as "stupid."

Ability to speak isn't the only indicator of delayed cognitive development. Guo Jing doesn't show any other signs of autism or developmental disability beyond his slow verbal development. The book even mentions that as a child he had a stutter, which could also explain his delayed speech. (I have some background in the care of developmentally disabled persons, though I'm not an expert).

Personally I don't think Guo Jing can ever be described as stupid. Having a speech impediment has nothing to do with intellectual development. Guo Jing never strikes me as intellectually limited. He's just not intuitive about interpersonal relationships, and he tends to see everything in very concrete terms.

[JamesG]

Oh yes you're right. I'd forgotten about Albert's exceptional case. But in Albert's case perhaps it was because he was too smart. Too many things going on in his mind.

Even in his later years good old Albert was reputed to have difficulty doing an expense report.

[smurf120]

I thought GJ grew up with a very hard life but managed to be bilingual and literate.

[Ken Cheng]

I thought GJ grew up with a very hard life but managed to be bilingual and literate.

Which was damned odd, under the circumstances. How and when was he able to become fluent in two languages, and literate in one of them?

[smurf120]

See Ken - that made me feel that GJ was a damn genius since I live in modern times and I am only moderately bilingual and literate in English.

He had to raise animals, live in a tent, learn martial arts and archery, and fight tigers.

[flyingfox2002]

It's not hard for a child to grow up bilingual. The human mind can learn any human language, you just need exposure early enough. I knew lots of people who are bilingual in English/Chinese or English/Spanish. Writing is another matter for the Chinese language. You need pure memorization to write the Chinese characters even though if you know the different radicals, memorization is made easier.

To this day, I just rely on a Chinese processor to type Chinese rather than write it with my hand from memory. I simply don't have enough experience writing Chinese to train my mind to recall the characters perfectly.

But in regards to GJ, I think (the LOCH version) was indeed 'stupid.' I think his innate intelligence was perhaps slightly below average, and growing up among Mongols amplified his simplicity so that when he came into the Central Land, he seemed even more stupid than he was. It doesn't take away from what he did though. Far from it.

[Dennis Chen]

I don't think he was a savant. He was a premiere athlete.

[JamesG]

It's not hard for a child to grow up bilingual. The human mind can learn any human language, you just need exposure early enough. I knew lots of people who are bilingual in English/Chinese or English/Spanish. Writing is another matter for the Chinese language. You need pure memorization to write the Chinese characters even though if you know the different radicals, memorization is made easier.

GJ's mum made sure he knew his Chinese heritage and his duty to avenge his fathers death. She may even have taught him some basic Mongolian since she had to get along alone on the Steppes. She may have been a simple peasant girl, but she was far from stupid. His Mongolian playmates taught him the rest of it.

[kidd]

It's not hard to be bilingual in his circumstances. His mother speaks to him in Han language and everyone else around him speak to him in Mongolian language. It's not surprising that he can be bilingual. Quite a number of Indians in my hometown can speak cantonese fluently because the area is populated by cantonese speakers.

[Ken Cheng]

It's not hard to be bilingual in his circumstances. His mother speaks to him in Han language and everyone else around him speak to him in Mongolian language. It's not surprising that he can be bilingual. Quite a number of Indians in my hometown can speak cantonese fluently because the area is populated by cantonese speakers.

But supposedly, we're talking about an individual known for having learning disabilities.

[flyingfox2002]

I think that language learning is a different type of intelligence than whatever type of learning it takes to acquire new skills - perhaps it falls under cognitive learning... not sure... someone may know better. If young children with low (but not severely retarded) IQ's are exposed to language young enough, they should still become fluent in a language. They just won't be able to use the language as eloquently as smarter people.

There's no doubt GJ is pretty stupid in LOCH. For example: The simple idea that kung fu (or by extension any source of power) can be used for good OR evil took him forever to figure out even though Cownose Qiu was yapping in his ear trying to explain it to him. (the Chinese adage "water can make a boat float, and water can also sink a boat)

That GJ is "slower" than the normal person is reiterated consistently in LOCH. It's hard to argue that he wasn't stupid. However, that is not the same as saying that he cannot do anything well, cuz it's obvious that he can.

[Candide]

For example: The simple idea that kung fu (or by extension any source of power) can be used for good OR evil took him forever to figure out even though Cownose Qiu was yapping in his ear trying to explain it to him. (the Chinese adage "water can make a boat float, and water can also sink a boat)

It's not that simple. The pursuit of the highest level of kungfu can bring out the worst in people. The hunts for 9 Yin Manual and for the Dragon Sabre are some examples.

You also took it out of context. Guo Jing struggled with that thought after his mother died and he thought that Huang Rong died as well. His mental well-being wasn't too good then and he was very depressed that despite his pursuit of top martial arts, he could not save either of them.

It always appears simpler to outsiders.

[bellamia]

By no mean, GJ is not “dumb,” but he is by far, a bright person. Probably this is the reason why I never admired GJ. It was only in his later years, when he matured, that I came around to respecting him. Though, I have always wondered, without WY by his side, helping him through trials and tribulations with her wits and intelligence, would GJ have gotten far in life and accomplished as much as he did on his own? For some reasons, I just don’t have too much faith in him.

[flyingfox2002]

It's not that simple. The pursuit of the highest level of kungfu can bring out the worst in people. The hunts for 9 Yin Manual and for the Dragon Sabre are some examples.

That is true in some (or most) cases with people, and the presence of a highly value object coveted by nearly everyone is a common theme in JY's stories; however, in GJ's case, he came to the conclusion that his having learned ANY martial arts was a mistake. He was not upset about people killing each other for 9 Yin.

You also took it out of context. Guo Jing struggled with that thought after his mother died and he thought that Huang Rong died as well. His mental well-being wasn't too good then and he was very depressed that despite his pursuit of top martial arts, he could not save either of them.

[/QUOTE]

It's true that he was through traumatic events and most likely deeply depressed, but IMO I don't think an average intelligence person would have taken that long to figure something so simple out no matter what.

[sniffles]

It's true that he was through traumatic events and most likely deeply depressed, but IMO I don't think an average intelligence person would have taken that long to figure something so simple out no matter what.

Moral concepts are never simple. Learning what's right and what's wrong is one of the most complex things humans do, especially since opinions about those issues vary from one social group to another. GJ was probably getting conflicting messages from his gongfu masters and his mother's teachings.

I haven't finished reading the book yet, but thus far I haven't seen GJ do anything I would consider evidence of lower than normal intelligence.