That Tricky Third Generation - When Bad Seeds Begin Showing Up In Wulin Sects

[Ken Cheng]

Founders of major martial arts sects tend to be great people. One doesn't become the founder of a sect that wins the respect of wulin at large unless one has the requisite martial, intellectual, and moral acumen. Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung, Cheung 3 Fung, and Gwok Seung each were great individuals who founded great martial arts and religious sects (the Cheun Jen Sect, the Mo Dong Sect, and the Ngor Mei Sect, respectively).

In each case, the founders were able to personally train a succeeding generation that did them honor. Whatever criticisms one might have with the Cheun Jen 7 Disciples, none of them ever became a coward, traitor, or rapist. The Mo Dong 7 Heroes were each and every one an honorable, courageous, and capable wulin gentleman. Not much is known about the second generation Ngor Mei Sect Leader who directly succeeded Gwok Seung, but she was unlikely to have been an abominable person.

But the third generation...that's when all the bad seeds start showing up.

The third generation of Cheun Jen Sect produced a rapist and two traitors (Wan Tze Ping/Yan Tze Bing, Yeung Hong, and Chiu Tze Ging).

The third generation of Mo Dong Sect produced a coward and traitor, Sung Ching Sheu.

The third generation of Ngor Mei Sect produced a vindictive, cruel, and hypocritical leader - Mit Jeut See Tai, whose failings would live on after her to stain the succeeding fourth generation as well.

Stretching this model further, the third generation of the Ancient Tomb Sect produced Lee Mok Sau.

What is it about the third generation of a sect that brings out all the bad seeds?

[Extremer88]

The third generation of Mo Dong Sect produced a coward and traitor, Sung Ching Sheu.

I think Wudang was actually quite OK. ZWJ actually also belong to this third generation, albeit not "officially".

[Ken Cheng]

I think Wudang was actually quite OK. ZWJ actually also belong to this third generation, albeit not "officially".

There were also "only" three bad seeds in the Cheun Jen Sect third generation, and only one known bad seed in the Ngor Mei Sect's third generation. You don't need an overwhelming proportion of bad seeds; just one is enough to taint a sect's reputation.

[AnhHung]

Dont know how long XYP existed before DGSD, but XZ was, by their standards, not an ideal students. He was ugly as hell and sucks at MA (even after 270 years of inner power).

[ChanceEncounter]

Well, it's just distance from the 'great' men. You have to figure that bad apples will eventually make it into any sect's lineage. It's just statistically inevitable. There is not a sect out there without a few bad apples.

But as you mention, the founders, Wang Chongyang, Zhang Sanfeng, and Guo Xiang were all great and moral people, and they had the option of building up the reputation of their sect and hand picking disciples that would ultimately follow in their ideals. Once their influence is removed, and the next generation was trained by individuals that were not as inherently great as them, the likelihood of them being bad apples increases greatly.

Then factor that it's like a pyramid, and each successive generation (within the first few) grows much larger than the one above it, and you have a recipe for at least a few bad seeds in the bunch.

[Ken Cheng]

Well, it's just distance from the 'great' men. You have to figure that bad apples will eventually make it into any sect's lineage. It's just statistically inevitable. There is not a sect out there without a few bad apples.

But as you mention, the founders, Wang Chongyang, Zhang Sanfeng, and Guo Xiang were all great and moral people, and they had the option of building up the reputation of their sect and hand picking disciples that would ultimately follow in their ideals. Once their influence is removed, and the next generation was trained by individuals that were not as inherently great as them, the likelihood of them being bad apples increases greatly.

Then factor that it's like a pyramid, and each successive generation (within the first few) grows much larger than the one above it, and you have a recipe for at least a few bad seeds in the bunch.

That's just natural attrition, I guess.

But three seemed to be the magic number. No major sect went three generations deep without the bad seeds turning up.

[shen diao xia]

Well, the Chinese have a saying "Wealth won't get past 3 generations"!!

[ChanceEncounter]

3 is the number for Wudang, Emei, and QZ. Is it mentioned as the magic number for all the other sects?

I'm inclined to accept that since WD, EM, and QZ are founded by 3 unequivocably 'great' people, they simply could not sustain the same level of greatness after those individuals no longer had direct influence on the teaching.

[Ken Cheng]

3 is the number for Wudang, Emei, and QZ. Is it mentioned as the magic number for all the other sects?

Cheun Jen Sect, Ancient Tomb Sect, Mo Dong Sect, and Ngor Mei Sect are the four sects in the Jin Yong canon whose history is presented from their founding up through at least three generations. In each case, the third generation was when the bad seeds emerged. That's 4/4; seems to be an emerging pattern.

I'm inclined to accept that since WD, EM, and QZ are founded by 3 unequivocably 'great' people, they simply could not sustain the same level of greatness after those individuals no longer had direct influence on the teaching.

In the case of Mo Dong Sect, founder Cheung 3 Fung was still around when Sung Ching Sheu betrayed the sect.

[sarakoth]

Cheun Jen Sect, Ancient Tomb Sect, Mo Dong Sect, and Ngor Mei Sect are the four sects in the Jin Yong canon whose history is presented from their founding up through at least three generations. In each case, the third generation was when the bad seeds emerged. That's 4/4; seems to be an emerging pattern.



In the case of Mo Dong Sect, founder Cheung 3 Fung was still around when Sung Ching Sheu betrayed the sect.

Although Z3F was still around, he spent most of his time meditating in secluded halls.

[Trien Chieu]

The third generation of Ngor Mei Sect produced a vindictive, cruel, and hypocritical leader - Mit Jeut See Tai, whose failings would live on after her to stain the succeeding fourth generation as well.

What is it about the third generation of a sect that brings out all the bad seeds?

I don't consider Mit Jeut See Tai as a bad seed. She didn't not betray her sect, she was willing to sacrifice her own life to maintain a good reputation for her sect... She may cruel to her enemy, but good to her friend. I remember Cheung Sam Fung asked her for a favor by accepting Chu Chi Yerk as her student and without much thinking, she accepted... Cheung Sam Fung owed her a favor...

[Ren Wo Xing]

The reason the 3rd generation is when bad seeds shows up is because by the time the 4th generation rolls around, a sect should be so big that one or two bad seeds (unless they're extremely skilled) just won't stand out.

[PJ]

Dont know how long XYP existed before DGSD, but XZ was, by their standards, not an ideal students. He was ugly as hell and sucks at MA (even after 270 years of inner power).

I think Ding Chunqiu is certainly a far worse bad apple than Xuzhu.

[PJ]

The reason the 3rd generation is when bad seeds shows up is because by the time the 4th generation rolls around, a sect should be so big that one or two bad seeds (unless they're extremely skilled) just won't stand out.

Yeah, like the apparent number of "bad" apples in Kunlun, Shaolin, and Beggar's Union. Those organizations, which have been around for hundreds of years, have abundant unpleasant people.

Of course, Mongolia must be the ultimate evil "organization," since every fighter from Mongolia ever lived in JIn Yong universe, before Jin Yong consciously turned Golden Wheel Monk into a Mongolian, was extremely to mildly indecent.