OT: Wuxia Forum Community Relations Referendum (all members invited)

[Ken Cheng]

Oh, and I think most people (probably including Ken, an educator) do agree that reading is intrinsically more valuable than watching TV. This is true not just for wuxia.

I don’t unqualifiedly support this view. Literature and television are different media, and one is not intrinsically superior to the other. The old educator’s cliché is that literature always trumps other media, but that’s too pat and simple to be accurate.

Literature is the better medium for the development of language skills. Writing skills and, naturally, reading comprehension skills can be helped by reading. I would not recommend using literary fiction as a guide to learning better writing (unless one is learning how to write fiction, of course), because literary fiction writing is too idiosyncratic and, frankly, if a student in a writing class started writing his essay in the style of Charles Dickens or John Steinbeck, he’ll likely earn himself “Ds” instead of “As.”

But I’m drifting from my main point, which is that learning is about mindset, not medium. Literature is a medium with didactic value; television and film can also be media with equal or, in some contexts, greater didactic value. To spurn one in favor of the other is, I find, unproductive.

Case in point: when I was in the 7th Grade, I read Dickens’ A TALE OF TWO CITIES for the first time in an advanced reading class. In a class of 35 students, nobody came into or finished the novel with a better intuitive grasp of plot, character development, symbolism, setting, or theme than I did. I totally dominated that class in a way I never thought I could (this being my first experience with “classic” literature, and going in intimidated like any other 7th Grader would). Did I ace the class because I was “smarter” than the other students? Hell, no! There were at least ten students in that class who had better grades/higher scores than I had (not in that class, necessarily, but overall). Was it because I’d read more books than they had? No – I did my share of reading, but I knew of at least a half dozen others who definitely had read more. Why did I have an advantage over these other students? Believe it or not, it’s because I had watched TVB dramas in my youth. In watching these dramas with the guidance of educated adults, I was already skilled in picking out nuances of plot, character, symbolic, and thematic development in fiction. If I saw Charles Dickens using a literary device in A TALE OF TWO CITIES to stress a theme or develop a character, I’d recognize it as something I’d already seen used by scriptwriters in a TVB series (whereas other students, who had no exposure to these dramas or watched them without guidance, were completely clueless and befuddled). As unbelievable and silly as it might sound, watching those TVB dramas actually primed me for a deeper and more intuitive appreciation of literary fiction.

Now I must stress that this is not a proposition for students to abandon reading in favor of watching television. The argument is that any medium can have didactic value with proper guidance. Aimless, unguided reading is not necessarily better than unguided television viewing, and by the same reasoning, guided television/film viewing can have equal value to reading (at least outside of learning the mechanics of language, for which reading is inextricably required). The key, however, is the quality of the guidance provided, not the medium itself. The medium is just an instrument of delivery; the quality of the knowledge gained depends entirely on the guidance.

Here’s another example from my experience to consider: Shakespeare’s dramas were conceived to be acted out on a stage, not read cold off a printed page. Without the tonal aspect of the voices and the visual aspect of the character/actors’ vocal deliveries and stage expressions/actions, a large part of what Shakespeare meant to convey is lost. JULIUS CAESAR, OTHELLO, HAMLET, KING LEAR, and MACBETH were all opaque to me at first when I read them on the printed page, but became immediately transparent when I saw filmed performances of each of them. The lesson here is that there is not inherent didactic virtue in the printed medium; visual and tonal media also have their educational functions that should not be overlooked in favor of some hidebound pedagogical bias towards the printed medium that I feel is more determined by tradition-founded chauvinism than reason, especially as 21st Century students are conditioned from an early age to be visual-learners first.

In sum, my own personal experience as both a student and an educator has provided me reason to distrust the traditional mantra that the printed medium is inherently superior to all other media in didactic value. The difference, again, is in the quality of the guidance, not in the medium.

That said, current program television does indeed suffer from a dreadful paucity of didactic value. That is the fault of the programmers; it is not an intrinsic flaw of the medium.

With that being said, perhaps a 'Wuxia literature' and 'Wuxia adaptations' subforum might be a good idea for the Wuxia fiction forum.

I disagree. Segregation is not the solution. If anything, it will make the divisions in the community all that more stark and might foster an “us” vs. “them” mentality that we’re looking to avoid.

I disagree. There is an equal amount of crappy book as there is of TV show. And this applies to even some school textbooks. Reading doesn’t necessarily mean you are learning – and learning doesn’t necessary mean that you are learning good things. In addition, there are many visual learners who learn best from what they see than what they read.

I agree on this point. See my remarks above for my reasoning.

[kidd]

I'm not so much asking people to do something for me as I am for them to *stop* doing something. In the past, I sort of just laughed off or ignored the "Haha! Ken doesn't read the novels! He bases everything on the 1980s TVB adaptations!" At first, I didn't mind...all in good humor, right? But the joke stopped being funny to me a long time ago (if it ever was) and has just gotten irritating to me...especially since there's an undercurrent of personal indictment to it (i.e. if the TVB adaptations are trash, and Ken likes the adaptations, what does that make Ken?). Let me just say that I don't care for the insinuations.

Ken, you are thinking too much. I'm sure no one has those insinuation. They are just teasing you for basing your discussion on the series (and thus not getting the true picture of the characters in the novel), but, nothing further. I'm sure no one thinks you are trash or have poor taste.

[endo]

Ken,

The problem arises when a discussion rises up. You are using and basing your debate on one source (tv adaption that's been translated and re-written by writers that have their own interpretation of the story and making that translation fit in a TV production) vs a person that basing the debate on the content of th novel itself...written by the author itself.

It's like the old chinese idiom "chicken talking to a duck". The discussion will go nowhere and will be baseless until you read the novels and base your debate on that source instead of and most likely a deranged interpretation of the novel by the tv producer.

After I read LOCH/ROCH/HSDS, I can't believe the crap that was shoved into the 80s TVB production just to make it more "viewable"? Don't get me wrong, I still think that those are the best productions to date but I think I like them more and more because of the actors/actresses more so than rewritten storyline (even though I like it but I wouldn't be basing any type of discussion on them because it has been more or less "tainted" by the tv writers)

You generally bring up some very good discussion topics and some are downright thought provoking (I really enjoy your analysis of The Bund). However, when it the discussion gets down to the nitty gritty and other posters are referencing the novel, it's hard to (at least to me) to take your side of the argument and see it as a valid counter in the discussion.

Now...discussion on The Bund is hands down your area of expertise. I don't think anyone has analyzed it as much as you and there certainly isn't a novel to dispel or counter argue what you bring up...therefore most of the time, I read what you write as something I can totally agree to.

just my two cents

BTW...it's summer and you should take a break from the forum. Maybe a trip to HK to shop for some more TV series will help

[Bai Qi44]

Have you seen SOD96? I heard, of all adapations, this adaptation is the closest to the novel (with some minor changes and plot expandation that improve the series) and it's the best SOD plotwise and has the best Linghu Chong.

In that series, DFBB comes out at the right time, late into the series and only for a short while.

http://www.spcnet.tv/TVB-Series/Stat...nity-p442.html

This is the only 90's adaptation that many people acknowledge is superior to it's 80's counterpart.

I don't know who those many people are, but to me, it's more of a tie. This is how I see it.
DGSD 97 > DGSD 81 (the 90's series was much better though both were entertaining)
LOCH 94 < LOCH 82 (though LOCH 94 was more faithful to the novel but not as entertaining)
ROCH 95 < ROCH 83 (ROCH 83 was more entertaining, but not as faithful to the novel)
SOD 96 > SOD 84 (SOD 84 one of the worst series ever and SOD 96 was the opposite)
DOMD 98 = or > DOMD 84 (both were fun to watch but the 90's version was more coherent in terms
of story telling, but lack the cast of the 80's version)
FFX 99 < FFX 85 (don't need to say much here)

If we counted HSDS 86 and HSDS 2000, it'll be a no brainer for 86 as 2000 was the worse HSDS ever made (movies or tv series), but we're only talking about 80's versus 90's so...

So, from what I have in the above, it seems like it's pretty much a tie. The 80's might have had the better casts, but the story telling isn't quite as good as the 90's due to the "being more accurate to the novels".


To Ken,

I would like to make amends for something that happened in our past. Back in 04, I think you said something to me on MSN and I got angry about it. Since then, I haven't really talked to you. That Icyfox episode does not count. This is the reason why I didn't come visit you when I was in LA in 04. I don't really remember what you said or why I got angry over what you said, but since I don't remember it, there's no point holding a grudge. Anyway, I'm a married man now (not one of those internet marriages that I actually had on SPCNET) so I guess I've matured somewhat.

Having read your second post in this thread, I like you to know something that you might not know (or maybe you do). Mindy (when she was still kicking around) and I were talking on MSN on why you didn't watch the 90's JY TVB adaptations and just stuck to the 80's ones. She had insisted that you should and it seems like after all these years, you still haven't. Most of the 90's series are way more faithful to JY's novels than the 80's series. If you don't want to read a translation not starting with DGSD, then what about watching a 90's JY TVB adaptations starting with DGSD? I would recommend you start with DGSD 97, then LOCH 94, ROCH 95, SOD 96 & finish it up with DOMD 98. Skip FFX 99 and stay clear of HSDS 2000 (this one is worse than SOD 84). You might also want to check out China's versions of DGSD 03 and Linked Cities cause they're pretty good too. I'm actually watching China's DOMD 2008 right now and so far, TVB's DOMD 98 is better. But like you once were, I've lost a lot of interest in wuxia.

[Ghaleon]

I don't know who those many people are, but to me, it's more of a tie. This is how I see it.
DGSD 97 > DGSD 81 (the 90's series was much better though both were entertaining)
LOCH 94 < LOCH 82 (though LOCH 94 was more faithful to the novel but not as entertaining)
ROCH 95 < ROCH 83 (ROCH 83 was more entertaining, but not as faithful to the novel)
SOD 96 > SOD 84 (SOD 84 one of the worst series ever and SOD 96 was the opposite)
DOMD 98 = or > DOMD 84 (both were fun to watch but the 90's version was more coherent in terms
of story telling, but lack the cast of the 80's version)
FFX 99 < FFX 85 (don't need to say much here)

If we counted HSDS 86 and HSDS 2000, it'll be a no brainer for 86 as 2000 was the worse HSDS ever made (movies or tv series), but we're only talking about 80's versus 90's so...

So, from what I have in the above, it seems like it's pretty much a tie. The 80's might have had the better casts, but the story telling isn't quite as good as the 90's due to the "being more accurate to the novels".

I agree with your comparisons. The only thing i don't agree with is ROCH. I found i enjoyed ROCH 95 more than ROCH 83.

90s series had better storylines (as they tend to follow the novel closely) and 80s had great acting.

[Ken Cheng]

I

To Ken,

I would like to make amends for something that happened in our past. Back in 04, I think you said something to me on MSN and I got angry about it. Since then, I haven't really talked to you. That Icyfox episode does not count. This is the reason why I didn't come visit you when I was in LA in 04. I don't really remember what you said or why I got angry over what you said, but since I don't remember it, there's no point holding a grudge.

Jason,

Welcome back.

It's not important anymore, whatever it was. A great amount of water under the bridge has passed since that time.

There is a "Truce" thread on the Off-Topic Forum if you'd like to sign it.

Yes, unfortunately, I've been making more enemies while you were away...especially during the past year. Some stuff has been happening in my offline life and it's been driving me insane, and the insanity has spilled over to my forum life. It's been hell.

Anyway, I'm a married man now

Well, that makes one of us. Congratulations.

(not one of those internet marriages that I actually had on SPCNET)

Internet marriages?

so I guess I've matured somewhat

.

I haven't, so you've got me there.

Having read your second post in this thread, I like you to know something that you might not know (or maybe you do). Mindy (when she was still kicking around) and I were talking on MSN on why you didn't watch the 90's JY TVB adaptations and just stuck to the 80's ones. She had insisted that you should and it seems like after all these years, you still haven't. Most of the 90's series are way more faithful to JY's novels than the 80's series.

I know.

I just have a psychological block on all Chinese stuff made after October 31, 1988, 11:25 a.m. PST. It's a long story, but it's one hell of a psychological block.

If you don't want to read a translation not starting with DGSD, then what about watching a 90's JY TVB adaptations starting with DGSD? I would recommend you start with DGSD 97, then LOCH 94, ROCH 95, SOD 96 & finish it up with DOMD 98. Skip FFX 99 and stay clear of HSDS 2000 (this one is worse than SOD 84). You might also want to check out China's versions of DGSD 03 and Linked Cities cause they're pretty good too. I'm actually watching China's DOMD 2008 right now and so far, TVB's DOMD 98 is better. But like you once were, I've lost a lot of interest in wuxia.

I've got all three parts of the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY downloaded on my computer now, but haven't had time to really read them between my work life, sorting out my personal problems, and working on my GUNDAM anime fanfic.

Someday...

As for the newer adaptations, maybe I'll get to them after I've resolved my psychological problems, but it's going to be a long wait. The roots of these problems go a quarter-century deep.

In any case, I'm glad you're back...really.

[kidd]

I don't know who those many people are, but to me, it's more of a tie. This is how I see it.
DGSD 97 > DGSD 81 (the 90's series was much better though both were entertaining)
LOCH 94 < LOCH 82 (though LOCH 94 was more faithful to the novel but not as entertaining)
ROCH 95 < ROCH 83 (ROCH 83 was more entertaining, but not as faithful to the novel)
SOD 96 > SOD 84 (SOD 84 one of the worst series ever and SOD 96 was the opposite)
DOMD 98 = or > DOMD 84 (both were fun to watch but the 90's version was more coherent in terms
of story telling, but lack the cast of the 80's version)
FFX 99 < FFX 85 (don't need to say much here)

If we counted HSDS 86 and HSDS 2000, it'll be a no brainer for 86 as 2000 was the worse HSDS ever made (movies or tv series), but we're only talking about 80's versus 90's so...

So, from what I have in the above, it seems like it's pretty much a tie. The 80's might have had the better casts, but the story telling isn't quite as good as the 90's due to the "being more accurate to the novels".

To you, it's a tie. But from my observation from reading posts in spcnet and wuxiasoiety.org,
SOD96 is the only series where many people acknowlegde as better than the 80's counterpart. For other series like DGSD and DOMD, eventhough u think the 90's version is better than 80's version, many still prefer the 80's version. This is especially true for DOMD. DOMD98 actually got a lot of criticism (I don't get why either since I think DOMD 98 is pretty good). DGSD97 was highly praised, but many still DGSD81 more.

[Han Solo]

Surely DGSD 96 is the better version without the ridiculous plotline of the 80s version.

Han Solo

[Ken Cheng]

Surely DGSD 96 is the better version without the ridiculous plotline of the 80s version.

Han Solo

That depends. Accuracy to the novel isn't the end-all, be-all determinant of adaptation quality for all viewers. I'd rather watch an entertaining, but inaccurate adaptation than an accurate, but boring adaptation any day.

Some things, frankly, I'm glad are changed in adaptations...maybe not the wholesale ending rewrites like DGSD '81, but minor things that translate poorly to the small screen. For example, I understand that in the LOCH novel, during Gwok Jing's contest with Au Yeung Hak on Peach Blossom Island for Wong Yung's hand in marriage, Gwok Jing at one point takes off his boot and uses it as a drumstick. That's an interesting idea on the written page, but it'd look a little stupid on TV.

[wkeej]

Interesting post. I appreciate the "massive" thread posted by Ken. I will like to post an even heavier post, but I think it will get very boring.
1. Just like Ken, I have never read a novel and will never read it too. weak in Chinese basically
2. My first encounter with a wuxia series is possibly HSDS (I learnt all these acrynoms when I am here) in the 1970s. About 10 years old then, I can remember two things: (a) zm gatecrashing zzr's wedding and (b) one elder sister complaining to his then-boyfriend (now husband) on how bad zm was. At that time, I have already loved "zm" (still do), fine with zzr, have no feelings for xz, but really hated zwj
3. Second encounter with wuxia series is possibly DGSD. hated DY for "dumping" MQW. And many other series.
4. Interestingly, just like Ken, I dislike YG. Indeed the most. Possibly of his age difference with XLN.
5. Somehow, I discovered this site a few years ago. I love this site as you can post questions and people will answer. (unlike some sites whereby your questions will be screened, moderated and then dumped into some other threads). Once again, thanks to the many "senior" people for answering/clarifying my doubts. But the most fruitful result of coming here is "knowing" green destiny. There were a lot of email correspondences between us. Green destiny enlightened my views, especially on hsds. Now at least I do not hate zwj and love xz as a result. Hope that one day, green destiny will be back. Another good thing about this site is the constant novel updates by Athena. At least I know that DY is marrying MQW. I really hope for the day when zwj marries all the four girls too.
6. Needless to say, I do have one/two disagreements over there. One is with kidd. Though I cannot remember anything, it could be due to my insistence/stubborness. (Kidd to enlighten?) Another is with Suet? Cannot remember anything at all too. To those who I have "offended", my sincere apology.
7. Nowadays, I do not watch any more JY wuxia series. Korean series, e.g. I am watching War of Flowers, seem to be the norm

[Ghaleon]

To you, it's a tie. But from my observation from reading posts in spcnet and wuxiasoiety.org,
SOD96 is the only series where many people acknowlegde as better than the 80's counterpart. For other series like DGSD and DOMD, eventhough u think the 90's version is better than 80's version, many still prefer the 80's version. This is especially true for DOMD. DOMD98 actually got a lot of criticism (I don't get why either since I think DOMD 98 is pretty good). DGSD97 was highly praised, but many still DGSD81 more.

My impression is that DGSD 97 is more highly praised than DGSD 81. I remember there was a thread in SPCNET asking which version of DGSD is better and most people chose DGSD 97. You can do a search on it, i don't have the link.

It seems like most people who read the novels prefer the 90s version instead of the 80s. The only exception to this rule is LOCH 83 and HSDS 86. You'll be surprised how many people like ROCH 95.