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Thread: OT: Wuxia Forum Community Relations Referendum (all members invited)

  1. #1
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default OT: Wuxia Forum Community Relations Referendum (all members invited)

    This wuxia discussion forum community has been around for a long time now. It has been operating since 2001, and many of the members have been regulars here for the past three to six years.

    Overall, the discussion is genial, but occassionally, and especially of late, it's gotten tense and contentious.

    This thread, therefore, has been started to discuss these issues in an open, but mutually respectful manner. We will discover or rediscover what makes our community work, and try to come to terms on misunderstandings.

  2. #2
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Who I am and how I came to be.

    I was born to Hong Kong-raised parents in the U.S. in 1972. Despite being born and raised in the U.S., Cantonese Chinese was my first language because nobody at home spoke English to me. I didn't begin learning how to speak English until I was in Kindergarten, which put me in the awkward situation of starting out my education in ESL despite being a native-born U.S. citizen (barring the 18 months I spent in Hong Kong between ages 6 months - 24 months).

    My grasp of Cantonese really began to expand after I was eight years old. That was when VCRs first came into vogue and, as a consequence, so did TVB serials in the U.S. In 1978, the first broadcast of a TVB series in the U.S. (as far as I know) occurred when the local KSCI-18 station in Southern California began broadcasting weekly episodes (two per weekend) of the 1974 TVB drama THE FATAL IRONY. Later, KSCI-TV also broadcast LUK SIU FUNG (my first exposure to wuxia in any form, although I had seen Bruce Lee movies before that), THE SHELL GAME, and THE BUND.

    My love affair with wuxia really began in 1981, however, with the release of DGSD '81. I was amazed: STAR WARS-worthy special effects on a martial arts program from Hong Kong. It was better than anything being shown on American TV at the time. Most importantly, beyond the razzle-dazzle SFX and the wonderfully choreographed martial arts (although as I grew older, I recognized it was basically the same dozen or so moves recycled again and again, but one doesn't recognize these things at age 10), these programs had amazing characters and stories. The lives of the characters were very engaging, and the interconnectedness of their exciting adventures gave the whole experience a grand, epic scale.

    My father told me early on that these TV programs were not created out of the blue by TVB, but were based on the novels of a writer named Jin Yong, whose works my father had read when he was a boy in Hong Kong. He enjoyed all the novels, but his favorite was SMILING PROUD WANDERER. Ling Wu Chung was his favorite character, and he often waxed lyrical about the "invincible' Ling Wu Chung, who could see through any martial artist's weakness and defeat him.

    At the time, however, it was hard for me to believe that anybody could defeat Kiu Fung. He looked so unbeatable in DGSD '81. Even when Mo Yung Bok emerged as a supervillain at the end of that series, I thought that even MYB could only defeat, but not kill Kiu Fung.

    As much as I enjoyed DGSD '81, however, I was surprised by how much more I enjoyed LOCH '82. My father had prepared me for this one, telling me about how the protagonist, Gwok Jing, was a guy who most would consider "stupid," but through his sheer grit and determination, ended up becoming (as my dad characterized him) the # 1 fighter in the world. I was immediately taken by the idea of this good, honest guy, who everybody looked down upon because he was slow on the uptake, but remained committed to his principles and eventually, did very well for himself. I was able to identify with Gwok Jing because, growing up, I was constantly being looked down upon by my peers as well.

    A year later came ROCH '83. I was really looking forward to this. My father had told me some cool things about Yeung Gor: how he lost an arm, but eventually became a great fighter by using a sword to train against the ocean waves, and that he would redeem the crimes of his villainous father, Yeung Hong. I looked forward to meeting this "new" Condor Hero, whom I expected to be even cooler than Gwok Jing.

    I was a bit disappointed, to put it mildly. I didn't click with Yeung Gor's character at all. I couldn't relate to him. If anything, he reminded me of those guys at school that I *didn't* like. Moreover, his girl, Little Dragon Girl, was really, really, annoying...in fact, I soon found the whole Ancient Tomb Sect annoying. I liked the ROCH' 83 story, but could never warm to the main characters.

    I was gearing up to really like SPW '84 because it starred my favorite TVB actor, Chow Yun Fat, and of course, my dad had sold me this story as "Jin Yong's best." But TVB didn't convey that well. DGSD '81, LOCH '82, and ROCH '83 had all been flawlessly cast and engagingly written, but SPW '84 was a mess from the get go. For starters, I found that Chow Yun Fat, as brilliant as he was as Hui Mun Keung in THE BUND and as Ching Wai in the 1979/1980 modern TVB drama THE GOOD, THE BAD, AND THE UGLY, was utterly out of his element in a wuxia series. He didn't convince me that he was Ling Wu Chung the way that Felix Wong convinced me that he was Gwok Jing or that Andy Lau had convinced me that he was Yeung Gor. Also, TVB way, way overdid the SFX in SPW '84. In DGSD '81, LOCH '82, and ROCH '83, TVB made limited, judicious use of SFX to facilitate the telling of the story. In SPW '84, TVB decided to showcase the SFX at the expense of telling the story.

    This is telling: despite the various changes to the stories, my dad never remarked that DGSD '81, LOCH '82, and ROCH '83 greatly deviated from the novels. Never said a word about it. When he watched SPW '84, my dad was constantly complaining, "What the hell?! That's not how it happened!"

    DOMD '84 was the last 1980s TVB Jin Yong adaptation I watched. I enjoyed it as comedy, but as wuxia, I felt it lacked something that DGSD '81, LOCH '82, and ROCH '83 had. It was something I watched once, enjoyed while I watched it, but never cared to watch again.

    1984-1985 was a time of great change for me. I was going through puberty, which does strange things to a fellow's mind. By then, I'd already been a wuxia (series) fan for three years, but all of a sudden, I developed an intense disdain of wuxia. I hated that I was watching the same dozen choreographed moves over and over again. I hated the predictable and cliched dialogue and plots (which I later learned to appreciate as conventions, as each genre has its conventions that can be easily misconstrued as cliches). I also hated the fact that the heroes always ended up getting the girls, which was really inconsistent with the reality of my junior high school experience.

    So in mid-1985, I abandoned wuxia fandom. I held it in disdain and mocked and ridiculed it for a decade. I couldn't be paid enough money to sit through ten minutes of LOCH, ROCH, etc., during this time period. That was the way it was for ten years.

    For some reason, however, I didn't have a similar reaction to Gu Long-based adaptations. During the years when I had sworn off of the Jin Yong adaptations, I really found a new appreciation for LUK SIU FUNG, LITTLE LEE'S FLYING DAGGER, and CHOR LAU HEUNG. There was something different about the Gu Long works that made them more palatable to me than the Jin Yong ones.

    In 1996, as suddenly as I had abandoned my Jin Yong fandom a decade earlier, I rediscovered my love of the old TVB 1980s Jin Yong adaptations. It had been building for a while...perhaps as early as 1991 and 1992, but until 1996, the barrier hadn't been broken down sufficiently for me to reconnect with the old adaptations of my childhood. I tentatively began rewatching LOCH '82 early in 1996 and to my surprise and delight, I did not have the negative reaction I did in 1985. When I got through ROCH '83 without trouble, I knew I was back. It was great: it was like reconciling with an old friend after a ten-year long bitter dispute. The friendship was back, and stronger than it had been before.

    This time around, I added a new (well, new for me) series: HSDS '86. I had known since the 1980s that HSDS was an extension of LOCH and ROCH (because my father and my aunt, who was an even bigger wuxia novel fan than my dad, had told me it was...through the character of Gwok Seung). HSDS '86 was great: a worthy addition to LOCH '82 and ROCH '83 that I wished I hadn't missed during my long sabbatical in the late 1980s/early 1990s. Adding HSDS to LOCH and ROCH really made the story even that much grander and more epic for me. I also began thinking of the three stories as unitary whole, and would never watch one of the parts without watching all three parts, in sequence. Without any one of the parts, I felt the story was incomplete...even though the connection between HSDS and the other two parts was not as direct or strong as the obvious connections between LOCH and ROCH. How serious was I about this? Believe it or not, it's not just a matter of refusing to read the translations until they're all done. Last year, when TVB released LOCH '82 and ROCH '83 on DVD, I refused to buy them until TVB also delivered the HSDS '86 set. If HSDS '86 were not released on DVD, I would have passed on purchasing LOCH '82 and ROCH '83, as much as I love those series and wanted to have a more durable record of them than my decade-old videotapes.

    In 1999, I discovered the Yushy Wuxia Forums. This was great! A place where I could discuss wuxia in *English*. That had been a great limitation for me in the past. I'm not Chinese literate (OK, I can recognize maybe 5% of the characters, but that's about it; I once struggled through the first LUK SIU FUNG novel by using my limited literacy, guesswork, and supplmental knowledge from TVB's remarkably accurate 1976 adaptation), so having a forum where I could exchange information and knowledge with English-literate wuxia fans was a godsend. Three years later, I discovered the SPCNET Forums, and the rest you all know.

    So this is where I come from and how I came to be.

  3. #3
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Sorry about my late arrival. The Yellow-dressed Lady syndrome got to me
    Actually I was caught up by a lot of work, so I was in read-only mode for a while.

    Anyway, nice autobiography Ken
    Did your life really revolve around wuxia that much, or did you only extract the wuxia-relevant parts out of your life history?

    Well, back to the original topic.
    Yesterday, when I saw Ken's frustration,
    I saw a part of me too.
    In the past, I had this "victim mentality"
    where I thought people WERE "out to get me".
    I seriously thought that some people were planted
    on this planet for the sole purpose of harassing me!
    Anyway, back then I used to look at others with contempt
    because I thought they didn't treat me fairly.
    I thought the reason was there was something wrong with them.

    After a while, I realized why they were treating me that way:
    because of what I did and how I presented myself.
    It had nothing to do with them, and it had everything to do with me.
    People would take advantage of me b/c I didn't stand up for myself.
    So what do I do? Stand up for myself.
    People didn't want to listen to my stories b/c I didn't make them interesting.
    So what to do? You guessed it: make them more interesting!
    Instead of relying on other people to "treat me right,"
    I began to conduct myself in a manner that will "attract a response that treats me right."
    This is about taking the power back into your hands.
    Because when you look to others to do something for you,
    you give the power to them.
    But when YOU look to YOUrself to make the difference,
    YOU call the shots.

    Anyhow, that's just a little principle that I believe in, and it's worked quite well for me! I have yet to attain the level in it known to SPCNET as the peak of perfection though

    So Ken, I would just encourage you to think about why you're not getting the treatment you want from SPCNET, and ask yourself if there's anything YOU can do to make that change. Try to think about it broadly -- this is much more than a SPCNET phenomenon; it's how you choose to look at the world, and live your life, every day.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    is this an online version of WA (wuxiaholics anonymous)?

  5. #5
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    is this an online version of WA (wuxiaholics anonymous)?
    No, because we're quite nonymous.

    How about ERORR: Exposing Real Overlooked Relational Referendum.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Anyway, nice autobiography Ken
    Did your life really revolve around wuxia that much, or did you only extract the wuxia-relevant parts out of your life history?
    I restricted it to the wuxia-relevant material, because we are at a wuxia forum, after all. That said, I shouldn't understate the influence that wuxia fandom had on my growth and development...particularly in how it led me to greater interest in my ancestral culture, which, as I was raised entirely in the U.S., could have otherwise all too easily have become alienated to me.


    So Ken, I would just encourage you to think about why you're not getting the treatment you want from SPCNET, and ask yourself if there's anything YOU can do to make that change.
    I'm not so much asking people to do something for me as I am for them to *stop* doing something. In the past, I sort of just laughed off or ignored the "Haha! Ken doesn't read the novels! He bases everything on the 1980s TVB adaptations!" At first, I didn't mind...all in good humor, right? But the joke stopped being funny to me a long time ago (if it ever was) and has just gotten irritating to me...especially since there's an undercurrent of personal indictment to it (i.e. if the TVB adaptations are trash, and Ken likes the adaptations, what does that make Ken?). Let me just say that I don't care for the insinuations.

    So I'm asking people to just please...stop. Ken doesn't read the novels. He can't. He's mostly Chinese illiterate, and isn't inclined to spend the time and energy necessary to learn the language JUST to read wuxia novels. If there were some more practical reason to learn the language...say increasing the size of my paycheck fivefold, then I'd seriously consider doing it. But since I have to put food on the table like everybody else, I'm not going to invest time learning a language unless there's a tangible (i.e. financial) benefit to it. For the time and effort that would be required, there has to be...because nothing's free out there. Gas and food prices are high and getting higher. I can't justify learning how to read Chinese *just* to read wuxia novels, which honestly would be mostly what I'd do if I acquired the skill because my job doesn't ask me to be Chinese literate...and it's unlikely I'd ever become good enough at reading/writing Chinese (starting now at age 36) to significantly increase the money I earn by learning Chinese. Besides, I must finish what I start, and somehow, I doubt I'd ever finish, which leads me to my next point.

    I'm serious about the translations. When all three parts of the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY are done, you won't be able to STOP me from reading them if you held a gun to my head (OK, maybe if you held a gun to my head, yeah). But I'm not going to do it until they're done because I loathe not being able to finish what I've started. That's just me. I can't explain it any better than that.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    We can certainly accommodate your request on SPCNET.

    BUT, do you plan to make everyone in your life accommodate your stubbornness?
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post

    BUT, do you plan to make everyone in your life accommodate your stubbornness?
    To a certain degree, yes. Because I am who I am. I change because I want to, not because I'm pressured into it.

    The more I'm pressured into something, the more fiercely I resist it. That's just the way it is.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I change because I want to; not because I'm pressured into it.
    I completely understand,
    b/c I'm the same way.
    Well, good luck to you.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Default who am i and how i came to be

    i guess this is a history of my wuxia background lol, ok

    I was born in San Francisco, California. There I grew up learning English along with Cantonese. My parents have no influence on me in terms of wuxia. I first found out about wuxia through TVB. The first TVB series I've seen was LOCH 94 with Julian and Athena, then i saw ROCH 96, then DOMD 98, HSDS 2000, SOD 96, DGSD 97, and a bunch of other random TVB wuxia series.

    I've never read a word of any wuxia books except for DOMD 98. For DOMD 98, I read 2 out of 3 of the books since that was my favorite wuxia series but i didn't get to finish because i dont have time .

    Basically, I found SPCNET when I was searching for reviews for HSDS.

    and this is it! hehe

    ps: how do u guys type with caps and punctuations anyways, its a pain in the ...
    Participate in SPCNET Idol Season 4!!!

    http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...66#post1127566

    Entries due July 31st, 2016!

  11. #11
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuNaR View Post
    ps: how do u guys type with caps and punctuations anyways, its a pain in the ...
    I finally mastered it in the 9th Grade with the help of my English teacher, Miss Sato. She was one hell of a great English teacher...very strict about the rules of punctuation, grammar, diction, and sentence structure.

    That she was one hell of a hottie too didn't hurt matters.

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Ken, why not compromise this way. XAJH, perhaps one of Jinyong's finest novels (irrespective of the adaptations), and a stand-alone, has been fully translated, by a combined effort from Lanny, hhuang, and pokit. Why don't you start with that while we wait for HSDS to be finished (which is coming along very quickly)? That way, you'd definitely be fully conversant with regards to at least one of the novels, topics involving which come up relatively often, especially w/regards to DG9J. It'd be a show of good faith to the rest of the forumites, and something you could do relatively easily, without any worries about 'starting something you can't stop' either.

    How's that for an idea?
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

  13. #13
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Ken, why not compromise this way. XAJH, perhaps one of Jinyong's finest novels (irrespective of the adaptations), and a stand-alone, has been fully translated, by a combined effort from Lanny, hhuang, and pokit. Why don't you start with that while we wait for HSDS to be finished (which is coming along very quickly)? That way, you'd definitely be conversant in at least one of the novels, the topic of which comes up relatively often (especially w/regards to DG9J!). It'd be a show of good faith, and something you could do relatively easily, without any worries about 'starting something you can't stop' either.

    How's that for an idea?
    Is DGSD ready? I'd prefer DGSD to SPW. Maybe it's too many bad adaptations, but SPW has never engaged me. Moreover, the whole she-male thing disturbs me.

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Is DGSD ready? I'd prefer DGSD to SPW. Maybe it's too many bad adaptations, but SPW has never engaged me. Moreover, the whole she-male thing disturbs me.
    DGSD isn't even close to being ready; we have only a few chapters scattered around.

    The she-male thing comes up only in one chapter, extremely late in the book; unlike the adaptations, DFBB doesn't make an appearance at all throughout most of the novel, thus making its first (and final) appearance such a shocker. And, to be honest, not a single XAJH adaptation has been very faithful at all.

    As your heir apparent, I highly recommend reading XAJH.
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    DGSD isn't even close to being ready; we have only a few chapters scattered around.
    Yes. Most importantly, only a few SWORD GOD excerpts have been translated thus far. DGSD cannot be considered completely translated until ALL excerpts related to SWORD GOD have been fully translated into English.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    DGSD isn't even close to being ready; we have only a few chapters scattered around.
    Ah. Never mind then.

    If I had to start with one, DGSD would have been my preferred one, as this is where I started with Jin Yong.

    The she-male thing comes up only in one chapter, extremely late in the book; unlike the adaptations, DFBB doesn't make an appearance at all throughout most of the novel, thus making its first (and final) appearance such a shocker.
    That's encouraging.

    And, to be honest, not a single XAJH adaptation has been very faithful at all.
    No kidding. I saw parts of the Chow Yun Fat version, parts of the Jackie Lui version, and the Sam Hui movie and...well, if nobody had told me, I'd have never have guessed that they were all from the same source.

    As your heir apparent, I highly recommend reading XAJH.
    So noted. First, I need to somehow overcome the psychological block of those really bad Chow Yun Fat and Sam Hui adaptations...

    I mean, those really SUCKED, you know? So much that the SPW "brand" has been spoiled a bit for me.

  17. #17
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Continuing my train of thought on SPW '84...it was the first time that any TVB 1980s Jin Yong adaptation really, completely failed to click with me. I don't know if it was the unrealistic expectations I had as a result of my dad's hyping SPW as the "best Jin Yong story ever," but when I saw the SPW '84 adaptation, for the first time, I was underwhelmed. I had no idea DGSD '81 had deviated so much from the novel (and wouldn't know about it at all until I discovered the Yushy Wuxia Forum in 1999), but that didn't stop me from being royally entertained. Ditto with LOCH '82, except even moreso. ROCH '83, despite Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl being supremely irritating, was nonetheless a ripsnortin' good time!

    SPW '84...God, that was dreadful...and even having my favorite TVB actor, Chow Yun Fat, as Ling Wu Chung didn't help. It made matters worse, if anything. I felt that Chow brought no enthusiasm to the role at all. He acted as if he knew his TVB contract was about the expire and he was just trying to get it out of the way (and it showed).

    The plot/script was a complete mess, so if the novel is nothing like it, then that's a plus. Also, somebody at TVB decided to blow the entire year's budget for SFX in SPW '84. There was more SFX in one episode of SPW '84 than in DGSD '81, LOCH '82, and ROCH '83 *combined*. Thank God saner minds prevailed when it was time to make HSDS '86.

  18. #18
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Now as to THE SWORDSMAN (Sam Hui feature film adaptation of SPW from the early 1990s), that was even worse than the 1984 TVB adaptation (if that's even possible). The TVB adaptation sucked, but at least I could follow what was happening (even if TVB and Chow Yun Fat could't make me care a flying fig what happened to Ling Wu Chung). Sam Hui's movie was even worse. I don't think there was a story at all...just people flying around in the dark with swords. Tsor Lang Sim looked like the most powerful martial artist in the world, but as far as I know, he's not even an elite in SPW, right? And if the Chow Yun Fat casting as Ling Wu Chung was awful, casting Sam Hui...who was in his FORTIES...was even worse. Ugh. What a trainwreck!

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    But I'm not going to do it until they're done because I loathe not being able to finish what I've started. That's just me. I can't explain it any better than that.
    Four words: 不懂變通

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Your father was right. 20 years is not too long to rediscover that!

    Who is Tsor Lang Sim? Can you even give me a rough approximation in pinyin?
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

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