Wan Yan Hong Lie

[Candide]

GK basically broke his relationship with his blood-brother and forced him to death.

He didn't. His sworn brother sold him out to the Jin. He was the one who tried to force GK to death. He just failed to do so and paid for it with his life.

[Ren Wo Xing]

He didn't. His sworn brother sold him out to the Jin. He was the one who tried to force GK to death. He just failed to do so and paid for it with his life.

This was after he was raiding his sworn brother's men and stealing them away from him. Jinyong specifically stated that both were to blame, although both used Wanyan Honglie as a convenient scapegoat instead of admitted to their own faults.

Err, you're wrong. Masculine is not equal to Good. I'm only saying that WYHL is worse than Genghis Khan. It doesn't mean that Genghis Khan is a Good man. WYHL, as said, would do exactly the same as Genghis if he was capable - well, he wasn't, and resorted to pathetic tricks.

You basically just contradicted yourself here. In essence, you just said, again, that a 'successful' bully is better than an 'unsuccessful' one (although I really do not see much evidence of WYHL being a bully), and that a person who could take and rape by force, is better and more capable than one who steals and tricks. Isn't that essentially what I said in my post?

The OP didn't mention it - that does not mean that nobody could bring up any other point. Just because I brought it up as my main argument in this thread doesn't mean that I'm obsessed with it (if I bring it up all the time in my threads here, feel free to shoot). I could equally say that you guy's "shades of grey - flip-flop - they're just as bad" new-age thinking is an obsession - but I didn't, because I'm not judging how you come up with your arguments.

Actually, you do bring up the 'masculinity' and 'pussy-whipped' and 'how men are supposed to act' thing relatively often (other forumites can confirm). Most of the time, it's rather amusing and funny, but I can honestly say that I was personally disgusted when I was reading through this thread, which is why I responded rather harshly.

Look, WYHL and Genghis Khan both wanted to be conquerors and were in the positions of becoming one. Forget about moral judgements one might have for a conqueror - WYHL wanted to invade other countries and kill millions just like Genghis, he just failed to do so. Let's judge them with the standards of a conqueror. In that perspective, Genghis is a far better man than WYHL.

Aside from the fact that you have no proof that WYHL would massacre the populations of entire cities for personal satisfaction, you cannot 'forget about moral judgments' because this entire thread was originally FOUNDED on moral judgments; flyingfox2002 was stating that on a moral level, WYHL wasn't "that bad of a guy", and that much of what he did, he did out of patriotism for his Great Jin, just like Genghis Khan for Mongolia.

You might as well say, "Forget about moral judgments; let's judge Guo Jing and Wei Xiaobao on the standards of successfully being able to spread their seed and procreate, which is an important part of being a man. In that perspective, Wei Xiaobao is a far better man than Guo Jing." Well, yes, if we take that extremely skewed perspective, that might be the case. But that isn't a wholistic look at the characters in question.

Anyhow, judging from the last sentence of your post, I think perhaps you just did not express some things as...clearly...as possible

[flyingfox2002]

Yeah, this thread got turned into a johnson-measuring contest between WYHL and GK.

My original comparison between WYHL and GK was to make the point that WYHL was villainized in LOCH even though if objectively analyzed, his character isn't that bad, while at the same time Genghis Khan was portrayed as a hero until the end even though (objectively analyzed again) he was not morally superior to WYHL.

]Remember the scene where Yang Kang was confronted by both his real father and WYHL and the thoughts that ran through his mind? His love for WYHL is entirely based on WYHL's power & riches.

He had one thought. He looked at his rich step dad and then at his old and poor birth dad, and thought "am I really going to give up all the riches and live a life of poverty?" His thought was about himself and his fate, not about either WYHL or YTX as father figures. Hardly any proof that his love for WYHL is entirely based on WYHL's power and riches.

Furthermore, it is clear that YK cares about WYHL as a father.

Like here, Chapter 15:
陆乘风父子与江南六怪一一在郭啸天的灵前行礼致祭。完颜康也拜在地下，磕了几个头，站起身来， 说道：“郭兄，我今日才知我那……那完颜洪烈原来是你我的大仇人。小弟先前不知，事事倒行逆施，真是罪该万死。”想起母亲身受的苦楚，也痛哭起来。郭靖 道：“你待怎样？”完颜康道：“小弟今日才知确是姓杨，‘完颜 ’两字，跟小弟全无干系，从今而后，我是叫杨康的了。”郭靖道：“好，这才是不忘本的好汉子。我明日去北京 杀完颜洪烈，你去也不去？”

　　杨康想起完颜洪烈养育之恩，一时踌躇不答，见郭靖脸上已露不满之色，忙道：“小弟随同大哥，前去报仇。”郭靖大喜，说道：“好，你过世的爹爹和我母亲 都曾对我说过，当年先父与你爹爹有约，你我要结义为兄弟，你意下如何？”杨康道：“那是求之不得。”两人叙 起年纪，郭靖先出世两个月，当下在郭啸天灵前对拜了八拜，结为兄弟。"

And here, from Chapter 16:
杨康当郭靖与金兵相斗之际，黑暗中已看出了完颜洪烈的身形，这时虽然已知自己非他亲生，但受他养育十余载，一直当他父亲，眼见郭靖杀散 金兵，完颜洪烈只要被他瞧见，哪里还有性命？情势紧急，不暇多想，纵身出去要设法相救，正在此时，郭靖提起一名金兵掷了过来。完颜洪烈忙勒马闪避，却未让开，被金兵撞下马来。杨康跃过去一把抱起 ，在完颜洪烈耳边轻声道：“父王，是康儿，别作声。”郭靖正斗得性起，黄蓉又在调弄白雕，黑夜之中竟无人看 到他抱着完颜洪烈走向祠堂后院。杨康推开西厢房的房门，两人悄悄躲着。耳听得杀声渐隐，众金兵四下逃散，又 听得三个蒙古人叽哩咕噜的与郭靖说话。完颜洪烈如在梦中，低声道：“康儿，你怎么在这里？”杨康道：“那也 当真凑巧，唉，都是给这姓郭的坏了大事。”过了一会，完颜洪烈听得郭靖与黄蓉分头出去找寻自己，刚才他见到 郭靖空手击打黄河三鬼与众金兵，出手凌厉，若是给他发现，那还得了？思之不寒而栗。杨康道：“父王，这时出 去，只怕给他们撞见了。咱们躲在这里，这几人必然料想不到。待他们走远，再慢慢出去。”完颜洪烈道：“不错 ……康儿，你怎么叫我‘父王’，不叫‘爹’了？”杨康默然不语，想起故世的母亲，心中思潮起伏。完颜洪烈缓 缓的道：“你在想你妈，是不是？”伸手握住他的手，只觉他掌上冰凉，全是冷汗。杨康轻轻挣脱了，道：“这郭 靖武功了得，他要报杀父之仇，决意要来害您。他结识的高手很多，您实在防不胜防。在这半年之内，您别回北京 罢。”完颜洪烈想起十九年前临安牛家村的往事，不由得一阵心酸，一阵内疚，一时说不出话来，过了良久才道： “唔，避一避也好。你到临安去过了么？史丞相怎么说？”杨康冷冷的道：“我还没去过。”

　　完颜洪烈听了他的语气，料他必是已知自己身世，可是这次又是他出手相救，不知他有何打算。两人十八年来父慈子孝，亲爱无比，这时同处斗室之中，忽然想到相互间却有深恨血仇。杨康更是心中交战，思量 ：“这时只须反手几拳，立时就报了我父母之仇，但怎么下得了手？那杨铁心虽是我的生父，但他给我过甚么好处 ？妈妈平时待父王也很不错，我若此时杀他，妈妈在九泉之下，也不会喜欢。再说，难道我真的就此不做王子，和 郭靖一般的流落草莽么？”正自思潮起伏，只听得完颜洪烈道：“康儿，你我父子一场，不管如何，你永远是我的爱儿。大金国不出十年，必 可灭了南朝。那时我大权在手，富贵不可限量，这锦绣江山，花花世界，日后终究尽都是你的了。”杨康听他言下 之意，竟是有篡位之意，想到“富贵不可限量”这六个字，心中怦怦乱跳，暗想：“以大金国兵威，灭宋非难。蒙 古只一时之患，这些只会骑马射箭的蛮子终究成不了气候。父王精明强干，当今金主哪能及他？大事若成，我岂不 成了天下的共主？”想到此处，不禁热血沸腾，伸手握住了完颜洪烈的手，说道：“爹，孩儿必当辅你以成大业。 ”完颜洪烈觉得他手掌发热，心中大喜，道：“我做李渊，你做李世民罢。”杨康正要答话，忽听得身后喀的一响 。两人吓了一跳，急忙转身，这时天色已明，窗格子中透进亮光来，只见房中摆着七八具棺材，原来这是祠堂中停 厝族人未曾下葬的棺木之所。听适才的声音，竟像是从棺材中发出来的。完颜洪烈惊道：“甚么声音？”杨康道： “准是老鼠。”只听得郭靖与黄蓉一面笑语，搜寻进来。杨康暗叫：“不妙！原来爹爹的金盔落在外面！这一下可 要糟。”低声道：“我去引开他们。”轻轻推开了门，纵身上屋。

Like I wrote earlier, WYHL convinced YK to be on his side by using promise of the possibility of being emperor -- a side that YK never wavered from after choosing, by the way, but before that YK was very undecided about what to do after finding out WYHL was the mastermind behind the Yang + Guo family tragedy. What held him back from deciding to kill WYHL was primarily the good memories of being father and son for 18 years, NOT thoughts about riches and power.

If he didn't "give a toss" like you claim, he wouldn't be having those thoughts.

You missed the point. The point is that WYHL tried to be a bully but even failed miserably at that. He used so many lackeys only to subdue two peasants & their pregnant wives. Don't you think that's pathetic? GK and his warriors were much better at bossing people around.

So I assume then thatyou admit that WYHL never "almost got himself killed" while attacking the two families.

Secondly, Guo Xiao Tian and Yang Tie Xin weren't mere "peasants." They both were good fighters by normal standards. GK's own men would have had trouble with them and he would have needed just as many guys to do the dirty work as WYHL's lackey Duan Tian De.

Third, you belittle WYHL yet again for something GK did as well. Remember how GK captured GJ's mom and used her to strongarm GJ? Now that must be some manly bullying according to you, using a defenseless woman, and really, his in-law, as leverage.

Btw, I am not passing judgment on GK as a manly man's man or not. I am simply pointing out that the things you belittle WYHL for as support for GK's superiority as a manly man are wrong since GK is just as bad.

[Trien Chieu]

Third, you belittle WYHL yet again for something GK did as well. Remember how GK captured GJ's mom and used her to strongarm GJ? Now that must be some manly bullying according to you, using a defenseless woman, and really, his in-law, as leverage.

Btw, I am not passing judgment on GK as a manly man's man or not. I am simply pointing out that the things you belittle WYHL for as support for GK's superiority as a manly man are wrong since GK is just as bad.

Yeah, both men belong to the same category and equally as bad...
Given what they had done, they both deserve a slow and painful death with million cuts.....