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    Default Wan Yan Hong Lie

    This dude was portrayed as one of the main villains in LOCH and the motivation for GJ's quest for vengence. When I read LOCH for the first time about 10 yrs ago, I hated this guy. I was yelling at YK to kill him and despised YK when he let him go. Then I was rooting GJ wholeheartedly on to off him and cheered (in my mind) when GJ finally got him.

    However, now that I am older and having read LOCH for a 2nd time some years back, my views have changed on WYHL. If you break through the Han perspective that JY puts readers on and read the novel from a neutral point of view, WYHL really wasn't that bad a guy.

    The only truly reprehensible thing he did was to steal a man's wife and break up the two families at the beginning. Outside of that, his actions in the book were those of a loving husband/father and a patriot to his country. Yes, he was trying to conquer the Song, but if the Song was strong and the Jin weak, and the Jin had any resources the Song covetted, the Song would have done the same thing.

    Genghis Khan was portrayed as a hero until the end of the novel when his ambition turned toward the Song. (I think he had the intention of uniting all of Asia early on, he just wasn't strong enough to achieve that goal so he kept that ambition quiet.) I don't see a difference between GK and WYHL, except the former earned points for being nice to GJ and his mom early on, while WYHL was on the side of the "evil" country from the beginning. GK was perfectly capable of stealing a Han man's wife and killing as many people as he needed to get his wish.

    From a neutral point of view, I see GK as a bigger douche than WYHL.
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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfox2002 View Post

    From a neutral point of view, I see GK as a bigger douche than WYHL.
    That's probably true. Yeun Nan Hung Lit's biggest problem was lust. Lust compelled him to murder two families, which is pretty reprehensible, but YNHL didn't get into these moods when he'd slaughter entire cities full of people just to make a point.

    Overall, Yeun Nan Hung Lit seemed to be a fairly genial guy (for someone who was a prince of a major Asian state) who was easy to get along with. I don't know that he was particularly loyal or brave (probably not), but he seemed to have a good political mind and knew how to acquire allies. The guy probably had alot of charm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfox2002 View Post
    This dude was portrayed as one of the main villains in LOCH and the motivation for GJ's quest for vengence. When I read LOCH for the first time about 10 yrs ago, I hated this guy. I was yelling at YK to kill him and despised YK when he let him go. Then I was rooting GJ wholeheartedly on to off him and cheered (in my mind) when GJ finally got him.

    However, now that I am older and having read LOCH for a 2nd time some years back, my views have changed on WYHL. If you break through the Han perspective that JY puts readers on and read the novel from a neutral point of view, WYHL really wasn't that bad a guy.

    The only truly reprehensible thing he did was to steal a man's wife and break up the two families at the beginning. Outside of that, his actions in the book were those of a loving husband/father and a patriot to his country. Yes, he was trying to conquer the Song, but if the Song was strong and the Jin weak, and the Jin had any resources the Song covetted, the Song would have done the same thing.

    Genghis Khan was portrayed as a hero until the end of the novel when his ambition turned toward the Song. (I think he had the intention of uniting all of Asia early on, he just wasn't strong enough to achieve that goal so he kept that ambition quiet.) I don't see a difference between GK and WYHL, except the former earned points for being nice to GJ and his mom early on, while WYHL was on the side of the "evil" country from the beginning. GK was perfectly capable of stealing a Han man's wife and killing as many people as he needed to get his wish.

    From a neutral point of view, I see GK as a bigger douche than WYHL.
    WYHL is more like a bully... Get what he wanted... On the other hand GK is more like a leader who actually care about his people... GK wouldn't not steal other man wife no matter how much he like the woman... However, GK is more ambitious and would do anything to conquer more land and build his great empire... I wonder why Chu Yuan Cheung didn't revenge on the mongolians after he found the ming dynasty... At that time, the Ming Dynasty is powerful while the mongolian is weak....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    WYHL is more like a bully... Get what he wanted... On the other hand GK is more like a leader who actually care about his people... GK wouldn't not steal other man wife no matter how much he like the woman... However, GK is more ambitious and would do anything to conquer more land and build his great empire... I wonder why Chu Yuan Cheung didn't revenge on the mongolians after he found the ming dynasty... At that time, the Ming Dynasty is powerful while the mongolian is weak....
    What?? What are you basing this on?

    For certain GK took lots and lots of women from others. He took whatever he wanted from the enemies that he vanquished. Most of the women he used for slaves or for rewards to his warriors, but there's no doubt he slept with at least some of them. He would not have taken a wife from one of his warriors, but neither did WYHL. WYHL only took a woman from a citizen in an enemy state. Difference is, GK probably just used the women for lust, while WYHL actually truly loved Bao Zhi Ruo.

    Secondly, WYHL definitely cared about his people. He worked tirelessly as a diplomat to foreign nations to work for his country's benefits. He recruited people to venture into the Song Imperial Palace to steal Yu Fei's War Manual. He died in a foreign land fighting on his country's behalf.

    GK was clearly a bully, while WYHL may or may not have been. Someone who isn't a bully would not use the mother of the man who saved his life as hostage to force that man to invade said man's birth country.
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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    WYHL is a chump.

    He stole a married woman, killed her husband (and failed), raised that man's child as his own, and bent over to his wife's wishes for 20 years. Talk about a willing cuckold! And sure, he luuuuuuuvs BXR. Can you get any more pathetic than that?

    That, foxy, is why he gets no respect and Genghis is still respected despite being a bully. Genghis also happened to be the damn best bully while WYHL failed to be one. The only people he could bully in LOCH were two peasants with two pregnant wives - that's with the help of a big army - and even then he nearly got killed for the trouble.

    Oh btw another reason: people followed Genghis mainly because they respected him as a leader, while WYHL had to buy his followers.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    My former lesbian comrade, you are totally biased and lack objectivity. Here's why your putdowns of WYHL are off base, and I wonder if you read a LOCH edition from bizarro world.

    You belittle WYHL for his relationship with BZR and YK, yet you don't even mention that Genghis Khan lost his wife to a rival tribe and had to rely on Wang Han to get her back. It's possible some of his sons aren't even his. I don't hold that against GK. I am simply pointing this out to address your putdown of WYHL and his relationship with his woman.

    Secondly, what is this "big army" that you speak of? Which version of LOCH are you referring to. WYHL had a group of about a dozen when Cownose kicked their butts. Hardly a "big army." And it was Cownose, a wulin expert who did the damage, not the Yang or Guo couple. Do you think GK would have done any better in the same situation? GK got shot with an arrow in battle. Now HE had a friggin army around him.

    Third, WYHL did not buy his followers. The guys that he did buy were mercenaries from other lands, not Jin people. If he did not pay them, they would not help. Note that Kublai Khan had to do the same thing in ROCH. Thus, it is hardly any show of ineptitude on WYHL's part, it was just the way it had to be. If GK wanted to get outside help, he might have been able to get some Han wulin people to help him, but that's only because the Mongols were battling the Jurchens, hated enemies of the Song at the time, and thus were friends of the Song.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfox2002 View Post
    You belittle WYHL for his relationship with BZR and YK, yet you don't even mention that Genghis Khan lost his wife to a rival tribe and had to rely on Wang Han to get her back. It's possible some of his sons aren't even his. I don't hold that against GK. I am simply pointing this out to address your putdown of WYHL and his relationship with his woman.
    Genghis Khan had plenty of wives and sons. He wasn't going to make the son of the first wife (the one who got stolen) his heir anyway and everyone knows it. WYHL made Yang Kang his heir (don't think WYHL had any other son) and pinned all his hopes on him.

    Secondly, what is this "big army" that you speak of? Which version of LOCH are you referring to. WYHL had a group of about a dozen when Cownose kicked their butts. Hardly a "big army." And it was Cownose, a wulin expert who did the damage, not the Yang or Guo couple. Do you think GK would have done any better in the same situation? GK got shot with an arrow in battle. Now HE had a friggin army around him.
    The Song army plus whatever Jin soldiers he had with him that were sent to capture & kill Yang and Guo.

    Third, WYHL did not buy his followers. The guys that he did buy were mercenaries from other lands, not Jin people. If he did not pay them, they would not help. Note that Kublai Khan had to do the same thing in ROCH. Thus, it is hardly any show of ineptitude on WYHL's part, it was just the way it had to be. If GK wanted to get outside help, he might have been able to get some Han wulin people to help him, but that's only because the Mongols were battling the Jurchens, hated enemies of the Song at the time, and thus were friends of the Song.
    Apart from those merceneries, who else could WYHL rely on? No-one. Genghis & Kublai had way more than that.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    Apart from those merceneries, who else could WYHL rely on? No-one. Genghis & Kublai had way more than that.
    Yeun Nan Hung Lit wasn't the Jin emperor, but didn't his father, who *was* the Jin emperor, accord him fairly broad military power? I've always had the sense that Yeun Nan Hung Lit had the authority to call up any units of the Jin army at his discretion, provided that he had good cause and could justify it the emperor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    WYHL is a chump.

    He stole a married woman, killed her husband (and failed), raised that man's child as his own, and bent over to his wife's wishes for 20 years. Talk about a willing cuckold! And sure, he luuuuuuuvs BXR. Can you get any more pathetic than that?

    That, foxy, is why he gets no respect and Genghis is still respected despite being a bully. Genghis also happened to be the damn best bully while WYHL failed to be one. The only people he could bully in LOCH were two peasants with two pregnant wives - that's with the help of a big army - and even then he nearly got killed for the trouble.

    Oh btw another reason: people followed Genghis mainly because they respected him as a leader, while WYHL had to buy his followers.
    If possession of his woman is the bar for manliness and respect, then Genghis must be unworthy of respect. Historically, when Temujin was a minor tribal chief, his lands were raided and his wife carried away. He got support from Jamuka and Ong Khan, and they launched a counter raid. Their raid was a success, and Temujin got his wife back, but she was already pregnant. Temujin raised her child as his own, calling him Jochi ("Guest"), and treating him as his eldest son. There was a lot of tension between Jochi and Chagatai, who refused to acknowledge Jochi as the rightful heir to Genghis, and this came to a climax when Genghis called for a meeting to discuss his succession. Here's LOCH's treatment of that incident, in chapter 36.
    Genghis Khan said, ?Jochi, you are my eldest son, tell me, whom should I
    appoint?? Jochi?s heart skipped a beat. He was very capable, had
    rendered the most service, besides, he was the eldest son. He had always
    thought that when his father king died, naturally the position would
    fall into his lap. Now that the Great Khan suddenly asked, he did not
    know how to reply.

    Genghis Khan?s second son, Chagatai, was like a raging fire. He did not
    live harmoniously with his eldest brother. Hearing his father king
    asking his brother, he opened his mouth, ?He wants Jochi to speak, what
    order will he receive? How can we let this Mergid bastard rule over us??

    Actually when Genghis Khan was young, his army was weak; as a result his
    wife was captured by their enemy, the Mergids. After several years in
    captivity, his wife was taken back, but by that time she had already
    given birth to Jochi. Genghis Khan accepted this fact with an open mind;
    he regarded Jochi as his own son.

    Listening to his own brother?s insult Jochi could not hold his patience
    any longer, he charged forward, grabbing Chagatai?s chest, shouted,
    ?Father King had never regarded me as an outsider, how dare you insulted
    me? What skill do you have that I don?t? You are nothing more than an
    irritable hot-tempered arrogant man. Let?s go out and have a duel; if I
    lost to you in archery, I will rip my own thumb. If I lost to you in
    martial arts, I will throw myself on the ground and never get up!?
    Turning his head toward Genghis Khan he said, ?Father King, please give
    your order.? Two brothers grabbed each other?s chest, ready to have a
    duel right then and there.

    The rest of the generals stepped forward to separate them; Bourchu
    pulled Jochi?s hand, while Mukhali held Chagatai?s hand.

    Genghis Khan was silent; he remembered his own disgrace in his youth
    that he was not even able to defend his wife?s honor, which had caused
    today?s dispute. The generals all blamed Chagatai for bringing up past
    events and hurt their parents? hearts.

    ?Both of you, drop it!? finally Genghis Khan said, ?Jochi is my eldest
    son; I will always love him no matter what. I forbid anyone to speak bad
    about him.?

    Chagatai let Jochi go, he said, ?Jochi is very capable, everybody knows
    that. But in term of generosity and benevolence, he is inferior to the
    third brother, Ogedei. I vote for Ogedei.?

    ?Jochi, what do you say?? Genghis Khan asked.

    Jochi could see the unfavorable situation; he knew his hope to be the
    Great Khan was shattered. He had always had good relationship with his
    third brother; he knew the third brother was kindhearted, certainly
    would not do him any harm in the future, therefore, he said, ?Very well,
    I also support Ogedei.?

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    If possession of his woman is the bar for manliness and respect, then Genghis must be unworthy of respect. (blah)
    That's not what I meant. Posession had nothing to do with it.

    Genghis didn't pine for one woman and raise another man's seed to become his heir. He also won his wife back. He had like a hundred wives and he never intended to make "that son" his heir, although he did treat him very well. All of his sons loved and respected him.

    WYHL stole another man's wife, worshipped her for 2 decades, raised another man's son, put all his hopes on him, only to see her run back to her husband, and his "son" couldn't really give a toss about him.

    Can you see the vast differences between a Man and a Chump?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken
    Yeun Nan Hung Lit wasn't the Jin emperor, but didn't his father, who *was* the Jin emperor, accord him fairly broad military power? I've always had the sense that Yeun Nan Hung Lit had the authority to call up any units of the Jin army at his discretion, provided that he had good cause and could justify it the emperor.
    Nah. His older brother had all the military power (remember the guy who was first in command when WYHL went to Mongolia the first time?). WYHL had jack (apart from a small group of guards and certain political power for being a prince). He wasn't even in line for the throne either. He was plotting to murder his brothers & possibly overthrow the Jin emperor to take over. It never got him anywhere and he ran away to Central Asia, which was why Guo Jing & Genghis Khan's army pursued him all the way there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    That's not what I meant. Posession had nothing to do with it.

    Genghis didn't pine for one woman and raise another man's seed to become his heir. He also won his wife back. He had like a hundred wives and he never intended to make "that son" his heir, although he did treat him very well. All of his sons loved and respected him.

    WYHL stole another man's wife, worshipped her for 2 decades, raised another man's son, put all his hopes on him, only to see her run back to her husband, and his "son" couldn't really give a toss about him.

    Can you see the vast differences between a Man and a Chump?
    Genghis didn't give any indication who would be his heir until that meeting, when he asked Jochi for his opinion. Chagatai protested, he and Jochi threw some pretty vicious words around, and Genghis was almost in tears trying to mediate between them. In the end Chagatai, knowing that his case was in ruins after that little set to, supported Ogedei, and Jochi, knowing he couldn't put his case forward convincingly, supported Ogedei also. For the rest of his life, Genghis divided up the territories and campaigns between Jochi and Chagatai, trying to get them to cooperate and live with each other. Neither was content with this, with Jochi going so far as to virtually set up a kingdom of his own. When Genghis organised a hunt to celebrate his latest conquests, Jochi ignored the summons and organised rival celebrations of his own.

    As for pining for his wife - when Temujin counter-raided the other tribe's camp, he went around the tents calling for his wife. AFAICS in wuxia it is considered unmanly to have one's judgement derailed by concern for women. Temujin went to war for a woman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    Genghis Khan had plenty of wives and sons. He wasn't going to make the son of the first wife (the one who got stolen) his heir anyway and everyone knows it. WYHL made Yang Kang his heir (don't think WYHL had any other son) and pinned all his hopes on him.



    The Song army plus whatever Jin soldiers he had with him that were sent to capture & kill Yang and Guo.



    Apart from those merceneries, who else could WYHL rely on? No-one. Genghis & Kublai had way more than that.
    Pannonian has already ably rebutted your statements regarding GK and his stolen wife and future heir with evidence from the book, so no need for me to go there.

    I'll just add regarding WYHL that WYHL may have been infertile since he had no known children other than the adopted son. Since he has but one heir, what's wrong with placing all his hopes on him? As far as everyone was concerned, YK was his birth son. There's nothing wrong with the way he treated BZR or YK as a husband/father. In return, YK did love WYHL as a father, contrary to what you say about YK "not giving a toss" about him. If YK didn't care about WYHL, he would have easily handed him over to GJ. WYHL convinced him once and for all to stay a Jin prince using power and riches as bait, but when YK saved WYHL, power and riches were not on his mind until WYHL's pep talk.

    It looks to me like you have the details of LOCH mixed up. How did WYHL "almost get killed" in the raid on the Yang and Guo homes? He was not even physically involved in the raid. He only made his appearance at BZR's bedside once his lackeys had "rescued" BZR. When he did almost get killed was when Cownose slaughtered his whole crew months earlier, and like I said, Cownose was a top wulin fighter. GK and his best warriors would have been toast just the same way. Notice how even the crappy Yellow River Ghosts had Zhe Bie and Tolu on the run for their lives.

    The actual Jin soliders and generals got little ink in the book so there's no way to tell WYHL's relation with the soldiers under his command but there's no evidence that he had no support. The book focused on his involvement with wulin mercenaries he hired because of the Yue Fei War Manual subplot. WYHL needed them for the purpose of infiltrating the Song Imperial Palace. The regular Jin soldiers would not have been able to do what WYHL wanted to do. It's not like the Jin soldiers refused to follow orders. GK would have had to hire help too if he wanted to steal something from the Song Imperial Palace because his warriors are just as incapable of a covert operation like that.

    Lastly, GK paid for his followers too, just in a different way. He gave out spoils from war to his warriors. It's not like his warriors were putting their lives on the line out of sheer admiration for GK and not expecting anything in return. I have no doubt GK was the better field general in battle, but that doesn't take anything away from WYHL. I see nothing in the book to suggest that WYHL wasn't a capable individual.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    Genghis didn't give any indication who would be his heir until that meeting, when he asked Jochi for his opinion.
    Simple politics. By asking Jochi that, he essentially ruled him out of it. It was badly handled, however, thus all the crap afterwards.

    As for pining for his wife - when Temujin counter-raided the other tribe's camp, he went around the tents calling for his wife. AFAICS in wuxia it is considered unmanly to have one's judgement derailed by concern for women. Temujin went to war for a woman.
    You got it wrong. It was for honour, with power being the other motive behind it. GK got his wife back and got his revenge on the enemy who kidnapped her, then he went on to have more wives. That's not pining for a woman. WYHL got totally pussy-whipped.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfox2002 View Post
    Pannonian has already ably rebutted your statements regarding GK and his stolen wife and future heir with evidence from the book, so no need for me to go there.
    No she didn't. You're welcome to try again where she failed.

    I'll just add regarding WYHL that WYHL may have been infertile since he had no known children other than the adopted son. Since he has but one heir, what's wrong with placing all his hopes on him? As far as everyone was concerned, YK was his birth son. There's nothing wrong with the way he treated BZR or YK as a husband/father.
    He didn't adopt Yang Kang. He stole a wife and a son from another man. Now that's low & pathetic.

    In return, YK did love WYHL as a father, contrary to what you say about YK "not giving a toss" about him. If YK didn't care about WYHL, he would have easily handed him over to GJ. WYHL convinced him once and for all to stay a Jin prince using power and riches as bait, but when YK saved WYHL, power and riches were not on his mind until WYHL's pep talk.
    Remember the scene where Yang Kang was confronted by both his real father and WYHL and the thoughts that ran through his mind? His love for WYHL is entirely based on WYHL's power & riches.

    It looks to me like you have the details of LOCH mixed up. How did WYHL "almost get killed" in the raid on the Yang and Guo homes? He was not even physically involved in the raid. He only made his appearance at BZR's bedside once his lackeys had "rescued" BZR. When he did almost get killed was when Cownose slaughtered his whole crew months earlier, and like I said, Cownose was a top wulin fighter. GK and his best warriors would have been toast just the same way. Notice how even the crappy Yellow River Ghosts had Zhe Bie and Tolu on the run for their lives.
    You missed the point. The point is that WYHL tried to be a bully but even failed miserably at that. He used so many lackeys only to subdue two peasants & their pregnant wives. Don't you think that's pathetic? GK and his warriors were much better at bossing people around.

    The actual Jin soliders and generals got little ink in the book so there's no way to tell WYHL's relation with the soldiers under his command but there's no evidence that he had no support. The book focused on his involvement with wulin mercenaries he hired because of the Yue Fei War Manual subplot. WYHL needed them for the purpose of infiltrating the Song Imperial Palace. The regular Jin soldiers would not have been able to do what WYHL wanted to do. It's not like the Jin soldiers refused to follow orders. GK would have had to hire help too if he wanted to steal something from the Song Imperial Palace because his warriors are just as incapable of a covert operation like that.
    He had no real power in the Jin court (his brother and the emperor had everything). He was constantly on the run with his mercenaries and almost got killed for the trouble. I tell you if he had a lot of political sh!t to deal with (meaning if he had any power to start with) and loyal people, he wouldn't be hopping around on the Central Plains. The fact that he placed his life & hopes on some mythical book (Yue Fei's manual) that might or might not help his cause says a lot about his self-belief and chance.

    Lastly, GK paid for his followers too, just in a different way. He gave out spoils from war to his warriors. It's not like his warriors were putting their lives on the line out of sheer admiration for GK and not expecting anything in return. I have no doubt GK was the better field general in battle, but that doesn't take anything away from WYHL. I see nothing in the book to suggest that WYHL wasn't a capable individual.
    Nothing wrong with paying your followers their fair shares. However, they followed him even when he had jack sh!t. That wasn't because he was paying them. It was respect. If getting paid had been their #1 motive, the Jin empire would've crushed them like little ants.

    Now, if Song or Mongolia paid the Jin mercenaries more money than WYHL, no way in hell would those guys follow them and stick their necks out.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Try not to view everything through your own...special...prism of what masculinity is, Candide.
    Blademaster. Hero. General. He was the best there ever was.
    Butcher. Murderer. Traitor. All that he loved, he had destroyed.
    Matheius Randas.
    That Merciless Blade - Legend of the Arctic Wolf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Try not to view everything through your own...special...prism of what masculinity is, Candide.
    Well I'm not saying that Genghis Khan's a saint - only saying he's a man, and let's not argue that, please, as he's respected by all. But come on, people may have different ideas of masculinity, but no-one can possibly say that a masculine man is the one who stole another man's wife and son in such pathetic & slimy fashion and call them his own. The two are vastly different and not the same, like the first post in this thread suggests.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    Well I'm not saying that Genghis Khan's a saint - only saying he's a man, and let's not argue that, please, as he's respected by all. But come on, people may have different ideas of masculinity, but no-one can possibly say that a masculine man is the one who stole another man's wife and son in such pathetic & slimy fashion and call them his own. The two are vastly different and not the same, like the first post in this thread suggests.
    Sorry, Candyman, but your logic throughout this thread is entirely skewed. You seem to essentially argue that a person who murders a million is more 'masculine' to one who murders two, because he is a more 'successful' bully; that a rapist who takes by force is more 'masculine' than a thief who takes by stealth; that a person who conquers and forces a hundred women to be his concubines is superior and more 'masculine' than a person who takes and falls in love with only one.

    The cult of masculinity you seem to subscribe to is bullsith when you try to take it to such lengths.

    And, for that matter, with regards to the 'masculinity' issue, you're the one who is obsessed with it and who brought it to this thread; the original poster made no reference to masculinity; the post was focused on how, aside from his actions w/regards to Bai Xiruo, Wanyan Honglie wasn't that bad of a guy, and that in many ways, his actions and goals were similar to that of Genghis Khan, and that the two were just as 'bad'. You're the one who interjected your obsession with masculinity into this thread, buddy. Even if Genghis Khan is more 'masculine' than Wanyan Honglie, honestly, besides you, who here fu**ing cares, bro? That's not what this thread was about.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 06-24-08 at 04:56 AM.
    Blademaster. Hero. General. He was the best there ever was.
    Butcher. Murderer. Traitor. All that he loved, he had destroyed.
    Matheius Randas.
    That Merciless Blade - Legend of the Arctic Wolf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    Simple politics. By asking Jochi that, he essentially ruled him out of it. It was badly handled, however, thus all the crap afterwards.
    Precedence played an important part in Mongol life. That was why Chagatai went spare when Jochi was asked first for his opinion - accepting that he had first voice in this matter would mean accepting that he had the most influential say in ths matter.

    You got it wrong. It was for honour, with power being the other motive behind it. GK got his wife back and got his revenge on the enemy who kidnapped her, then he went on to have more wives. That's not pining for a woman. WYHL got totally pussy-whipped.
    Actually, Temujin was living happily in obscurity before this. Ong Khan had offered him a chance to join him as a client under his protection, but Temujin turned him down, preferring to live away from all the steppe politics. Only after the Merkids had taken his wife did he turn to Ong Khan and the mainstream politics he represented.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Sorry, Candyman, but your logic throughout this thread is entirely skewed. You essentially argue that a person who murders a million is superior to one who murders two; that a rapist who takes by force, is better than a thief who takes by stealth; that a person who conquers and forces a hundred women to be his concubines is superior and more manly than a person who takes and falls in love with only one.

    Sorry, but the cult of masculinity you seem to subscribe to is bullsith when you try to take it to such lengths.
    Go WRX!


    I don't think WYHL is any worse than GK, who (besides wanting to destroy an entire city after conquering it and forcing GJ's mom to commit suicide) basically broke his relationship with his blood-brother and forced him to death. Different levels of wrongdoing are being compared here and I don't exactly see how some of them correlate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Sorry, Candyman, but your logic throughout this thread is entirely skewed. You seem to essentially argue that a person who murders a million is more 'masculine' to one who murders two, because he is a more 'successful' bully; that a rapist who takes by force is more 'masculine' than a thief who takes by stealth; that a person who conquers and forces a hundred women to be his concubines is superior and more 'masculine' than a person who takes and falls in love with only one.

    The cult of masculinity you seem to subscribe to is bullsith when you try to take it to such lengths.
    Err, you're wrong. Masculine is not equal to Good. I'm only saying that WYHL is worse than Genghis Khan. It doesn't mean that Genghis Khan is a Good man. WYHL, as said, would do exactly the same as Genghis if he was capable - well, he wasn't, and resorted to pathetic tricks.

    And, for that matter, with regards to the 'masculinity' issue, you're the one who is obsessed with it and who brought it to this thread; the original poster made no reference to masculinity; the post was focused on how, aside from his actions w/regards to Bai Xiruo, Wanyan Honglie wasn't that bad of a guy, and that in many ways, his actions and goals were similar to that of Genghis Khan, and that the two were just as 'bad'. You're the one who interjected your obsession with masculinity into this thread, buddy. Even if Genghis Khan is more 'masculine' than Wanyan Honglie, honestly, besides you, who here fu**ing cares, bro? That's not what this thread was about.
    The OP didn't mention it - that does not mean that nobody could bring up any other point. Just because I brought it up as my main argument in this thread doesn't mean that I'm obsessed with it (if I bring it up all the time in my threads here, feel free to shoot). I could equally say that you guy's "shades of grey - flip-flop - they're just as bad" new-age thinking is an obsession - but I didn't, because I'm not judging how you come up with your arguments.

    Look, WYHL and Genghis Khan both wanted to be conquerors and were in the positions of becoming one. Forget about moral judgements one might have for a conqueror - WYHL wanted to invade other countries and kill millions just like Genghis, he just failed to do so. Let's judge them with the standards of a conqueror. In that perspective, Genghis is a far better man than WYHL.

    As for what I think of Genghis? Guo Jing's discussion with him at the end of LOCH sums it up.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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