Which of Jin Yong's shorter stories do you like most?

[Tom]

So...the question is: which of Jin Yong's shorter stories do you like most?

We most often talk about Jin Yong's top 6 stories (DGSD, LOCH, ROCH, HSDS, XAJH, DOMD), but rarely are we seen talking about Jin Yong's lesser known stories.

So, out of the rest of Jin Yong's stories, which is your favorite?

Options are:

书剑恩仇录 - The Book And The Sword
碧血剑 - Sword Stained With Royal Blood
侠客行 - Ode To Gallantry
连城诀 - A Deadly Secret
雪山飞狐 - Flying Fox Of Snowy Mountain
飞狐外传 - Other Stories Of The Flying Fox
白马啸西风 - White Horse Riding The West Wind
鸳鸯刀 - Lovers' Sabre
越女剑 - Yueh Maiden's Sword

[Tom]

Wow, what a surprise that SSWRB is actually winning the poll. I always thought that everyone thought that the story was boring, and that the main character was underdeveloped. Turns out that I thought wrong,

[Wu Wudi]

Wow, what a surprise that SSWRB is actually winning the poll. I always thought that everyone thought that the story was boring, and that the main character was underdeveloped. Turns out that I thought wrong,

Actually, most readers would probably agree with you. My uncle in HK said that SSWRB is considered one of JY's lesser works. Many of the famous JY elements were still pretty primitive in SSWRB. Keep in mind this is a forum where many members care more about the MA and fights than the overall story.

[kidd]

Also note that the recent SSWRB adaptation by Zhang Ji Zhong was very well done and well received.

[PJ]

I like SSWRB. It's like a mini version of LOCH meets HSDS. Like LOCH, the protagonist is based on the patriotic Yue Fei archetype. Like HSDS, the protagonist became invincible very early in the story.

[Ren Wo Xing]

XKX, simply on the basis of the poem itself by Li Bai. Come on, how badass is it? "赵客缦胡缨，吴钩霜雪明。银鞍照白马，飒沓如流星。 十步杀一人，千里不留行。"

[Wu Wudi]

I like SSWRB. It's like a mini version of LOCH meets HSDS. Like LOCH, the protagonist is based on the patriotic Yue Fei archetype. Like HSDS, the protagonist became invincible very early in the story.

The funny thing is that in the afterword of SSWRB, JY mentions that he doesn't really consider YCZ to be a hero, unlike his father, General Yuan.

[PJ]

The funny thing is that in the afterword of SSWRB, JY mentions that he doesn't really consider YCZ to be a hero, unlike his father, General Yuan.

Are you referring to this afterword:

《碧血剑》是我的第二部小说，作于一九五六年。《碧血剑》的真正主角其实是袁崇焕，其次是金蛇郎君，两个在 书中没有正式出场的人物。袁承志的性格并不鲜明。

[Wu Wudi]

Are you referring to this afterword:

《碧血剑》是我的第二部小说，作于一九五六年。《碧血剑》的真正主角其实是袁崇焕，其次是金蛇郎君，两个在 书中没有正式出场的人物。袁承志的性格并不鲜明。

No, I must have been mistaken about that part being in the afterword. JY specifically compared the fictional son to the historical father and found the son to be lacking.

[PJ]

I probably haven't read that comparison yet; neither have I finished reading the novel. But I would agree that Yuan Chengzhi lacks some "big heroic" qualities. He let his unofficial girlfriend wear the pants many times. He failed to rescue some innocent people when it should have been easy for him to do; and he let some evildoers get away with their crime (Jin Yong fixed this problem a little bit in the 3rd edition).

That said, I found Yuan Chengzhi's overall qualities so far to be worthy of being considered a hero, a true xia. He is kind, respectful, and selfless. He gave up the person that he loved/liked in order to take care of another girl because it was her mother's final wish. Jin Yong said that was a true illustration of the essence of xiaism.

I would guess that Jin Yong wrote his opinion on "Yuan Chengzhi and heroism" many years ago. If that's the case, it's possible that his attitude would have evolved since then. I am making that educated guess because Jin Yong had said towards the beginning of his career, he was very much a patriotic writer, and SSWRB being his 2nd book, reflected this value very much. Towards the end of his career, however, Jin Yong became more liberal, and his later novels abolished this "Han is better than all" ideology. I'm guessing that a bulk of the reason why Jin Yong likes Yuan CHengzhi's father a lot, is due to his patriotism. However, would the more liberal Jin Yong still like this character as much, is something that I question. And we have just recently discussed that Jin Yong's ideas do evolve over time.

[PJ]

OK, I found the comparison. It's in the article about General Yuan, which is included in the book.

　　《碧血剑》中的袁承志，在性格上只是一个平凡人物。他没有抗拒艰难时世的勇气，受了挫折后逃避海外，就 像我们大多数在海外的人一样。
　　袁崇焕却是真正的英雄，大才豪气，笼盖当世，即使他的缺点，也是英雄式的惊世骇俗。他比小说中虚构的英 雄人物，有更多的英雄气概。

I shall try to refrain from further comments regarding this matter until I've read all of Yuan Chengzhi's encounters.

[Wu Wudi]

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. Good job finding it.

That quote gives us an interesting insight into what JY considers a hero. It explains why JY chose to make GJ fight until the end. For JY, never giving up is the ultimate display of heroism and that's what makes GJ "Gwok Da Xia". Based on that criteria of heroism, even someone like Linghu Chong would be more of a hero than Yuan Chengzhi because LHC chose to stay in a seemingly hopeless situation.

[Candide]

He gave up the person that he loved/liked in order to take care of another girl because it was her mother's final wish. Jin Yong said that was a true illustration of the essence of xiaism.

Uh, no, that, plus the fact that his woman wore the pants in the relationship, is the true illustration of chump-ism. There is no xia in that.

[PJ]

Uh, no, that, plus the fact that his woman wore the pants in the relationship, is the true illustration of chump-ism. There is no xia in that.

In the 3rd edition, Jin Yong made it clear that Yuan Chengzhi was attracted to Ah Jiu from the get go, but he chose to be with Qingqing because Qingqing's mother asked him to do so. In the article I posted a few days ago, Jin Yong specifically said this: 比如袁承志爱上阿九后，仍必须信守照顾青青的承诺， 情义之间举棋不定。最后他选青青，既凸显武侠强调的「义」字，更反映真实人生中的复杂。

Translation: After Yuan Chengzhi fell in love with Ah Jiu, he nevertheless needed to fulfill his "promise" to take care of Qingqing. There was a clash between his feelings (qing) and his integrity (yi). In the end he picked Qingqing, illustrating the strong sense of integrity (yi) emphasized in wuxia, at the same time reflecting the complexity of life.

[PJ]

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. Good job finding it.

That quote gives us an interesting insight into what JY considers a hero. It explains why JY chose to make GJ fight until the end. For JY, never giving up is the ultimate display of heroism and that's what makes GJ "Gwok Da Xia". Based on that criteria of heroism, even someone like Linghu Chong would be more of a hero than Yuan Chengzhi because LHC chose to stay in a seemingly hopeless situation.

Yes, that's what he thought back then, but he might have changed his mind since then about what constitutes a hero. Because Jin Yong was fairly simple-minded at the beginning; like you said, simply "fighting till the end." In DGSD, we saw something more complicated emerged: Xiao Feng didn't just "fight until the end;" he actually (pardon me for lack of better expression) "overcame fighting without fighting." And Xiao Feng is usually considered the other megalithic hero alongside Guo Jing. For Jin Yong to write a hero who did not "fight" the conventional way, to me is a sign that Jin Yong's idea of heroism has evolved. And that was some 20+ years ago. Who knows if he got more liberal or more conservative over the last 2 decades.

[Wu Wudi]

PJ, I had written a fairly long reply. Unfortunately, the post got lost because I got logged off for some reason.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I don't think that "fighting to the end" just means physically fighting. In GJ's case, that was all he could do since he's already tried diplomacy and failed. I believe it means staying until the end to face the challenges, no matter how hopeless the situation might seem.

I do agree with you that XF is a good example of JY becoming a more sophisticated writer. I would like to discuss XF in more depth someday since he really does deviate much from the conventional JY protaganist.

[Tom]

Also note that the recent SSWRB adaptation by Zhang Ji Zhong was very well done and well received.

Most definitely. I loved the adaptation. It surely seems better received than the book itself. This is quite a shock...for once adaptation>book.

[PJ]

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I don't think that "fighting to the end" just means physically fighting. In GJ's case, that was all he could do since he's already tried diplomacy and failed. I believe it means staying until the end to face the challenges, no matter how hopeless the situation might seem.

True that "fighting to the end" doesn't have to mean fighting "blindly", but in fact during Jin Yong's early writing period, the only type of hero that he depicted is the type that stays loyal to one's country and kills as many foreigners as possible. That was the case with Chen Jialuo in B&S, Yuan Chengzhi in SSWRB, and Guo Jing in LOCH/ROCH. The transition period, as far as I could detect, happened in ROCH, when Yang Guo placed his personal business above the well-being of the country. Then in HSDS, Zhang Wuji was a peacemaker at heart, even though his organization did try to overthrow the foreign ruler. The mature period started with Xiao Feng in DGSD. I think that was the first time that foreigners were depicted as having the possibility of being an equal to the Han. In his subsequent 3 novels--ADS, OTG, and SPW--Jin Yong removed nearly all government involvements (GI). There was no GI at all in SPW and OTG, while ADS had minimal GI. In DOMD, the government returned again, but this time there was no hero, although I think the anti-hero did have some xia yi values.

So in fact, I believe to the early Jin Yong, the heroes were really pre-programmed to perform a set of rather predictable things that Jin Yong thought constituted a hero, and "fighting till the end" did, for the most part, simply mean "defend your country."

I do agree with you that XF is a good example of JY becoming a more sophisticated writer. I would like to discuss XF in more depth someday since he really does deviate much from the conventional JY protaganist.

Any time you want to discuss Xiao Feng, I'm game.
Wei Xiaobao and Yang Guo are also very unique.
But unfortunately I don't know much about Xiaobao.

[Loke-Gao-Zhu]

out of all the books i've only read 连城诀 and 书剑恩仇录

i'd choose a deadly secret, it has such a deep and emotional storyline (if you've read the epilogue of JY).

书剑恩仇录 has great characters but the ending is kind of flawed, still a great novel nonethless

[Ren Ying Ying]

i've always been a fan of "count of monte cristo" and "deadly secret" kinda goes along that plotline.