View Poll Results: Do JM/DGKB type characters make a mockery of the Greats?

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  • Yeah, they do, and it's a shame because the Greats aren't so "great" after all.

    9 28.13%
  • No, the Greats are still great, even if such figures exist.

    23 71.88%
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Thread: Does the existence of characters such as J. Monk/DGKB make a mockery of the Greats?

  1. #21
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    The ability to use 禽龙功 is not a measure of his internal energy. Although it is no simple skill, it doesnt show Xiao Feng's internal is higher than Guo Jing's.

    LDA= Long Distance Attack.
    Probably not, but the LDA guy has the advantage of striking from distance while the non-LDA guy has to get in close. It's why guns generally win out against knives.

  2. #22
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    LDA isn't like a gun. The same mechanism that powers LDA is an equally effective defense against an LDA (that is, striking out with a palm using internal energy).

    A LDA is a dangerous tactic to use because if you miss or it's dispersed, you've expended a lot of internal energy that cannot be recouped. A palm attack can fully be retracted if internal energy purity is high. So a heavy strike won't waste that much energy in comparison.



    The only possible exception is 6MSJ since it's a cutting chi. However, I haven't seen convincing evidence that high internal energy counterattacks can't disperse the chi. Even an iron sword was sufficient to block it outside of a few feet after all showing that the blade loses it coherence. A high internal energy attack would serve to break up the blade earlier.

    I'd wager there'd still be a minimum range where the narrow blade will dominate despite the counterstrike but the range is still reduced somewhat making 6MSJ "merely" incredibly dangerous instead of nigh-invincible.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 07-08-08 at 11:56 PM.

  3. #23
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    To make these characters legitimate in my eyes, I think it's necessary to allow the possibility that our known characters can defeat them...if not individually, then collectively. It need not be easy or common, but if even the possibility is disallowed, then it's even more difficult to buy into these "invincible" characters.

  4. #24
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    In a way, I'd say yes. Not just in terms of martial arts. Sweeper Monk reached his level due to his enlightenment. As I mentioned in the other thread, the 5 original Greats were all filled with ego. Except for Wang Chongyang, I think the other 4 Greats ultimately absolved their egoes, in the case of OYF and HQG, it was (IMHO) right before they died.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    In a way, I'd say yes. Not just in terms of martial arts. Sweeper Monk reached his level due to his enlightenment. As I mentioned in the other thread, the 5 original Greats were all filled with ego. Except for Wang Chongyang, I think the other 4 Greats ultimately absolved their egoes, in the case of OYF and HQG, it was (IMHO) right before they died.
    Are you saying Sweeper only reached his level because he had no ego?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Are you saying Sweeper only reached his level because he had no ego?
    Yes, I am. As I mentioned in another thread, my own hero, Wang Chongyang couldn't overcome Jade Maiden martial arts because of his ego. He couldn't see beyond his own ego to really understand the true essence of Jade Maiden martial arts and therefore overcome it, which ironically would be completely not the point. Jade Maiden's true essence isn't about overcoming Quanzhen martial arts, it was to complement it. Wang Chongyang could never imagine that he could need anybody except his own abilities, his ideas, his ideals, himself. Sweeper Monk wasn't held back by any ideals or himself; he didn't even have a name.

    LOCH and ROCH was filled with powerful men filled and fueled with ego, namely, the 5 Greats. DGSD was filled with men who overcame or absolved their egos, from Xiao Yuanshan, Murong Bo, Jiumozhi to Xiao Feng.
    Last edited by Dennis Chen; 10-13-09 at 06:59 PM.

  7. #27
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Actually, the one who makes the most mockery of the Greats (established in that novel) is Dongfang Bubai. All novel long we've been led to believe that Dugu 9 Swords = peak of divinity, Ren Woxing = ultimate badass, Fangzheng = enlightened & unbeatable. And yet, when Dongfang Bubai showed up, he/she made the rest of them look like puppets.

    Imagine if Eastern Heretic Huang Yaoshi, Southern Emperor Yideng, Northern Beggar Hong Qigong, and Western Venom Ouyang Feng COLLECTIVELY were getting their asses kicked by a total creep. That's what Dongfang Bubai did to the SPW "Greats."
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  8. #28
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    Jin Yong does seem to like to do that, doesn't he? Qiu Chuji seemed pretty awesome until the Greats appeared. Xiao Feng was a demi-god until Sweeper Monk appeared. And then your example.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    Yes, I am. As I mentioned in another thread, my own hero, Wang Chongyang couldn't overcome Jade Maiden martial arts because of his ego. He couldn't see beyond his own ego to really understand the true essence of Jade Maiden martial arts and therefore overcome it, which ironically would be completely not the point. Jade Maiden's true essence isn't about overcoming Quanzhen martial arts, it was to complement it. Wang Chongyang could never imagine that he could need anybody except his own abilities, his ideas, his ideals, himself. Sweeper Monk wasn't held back by any ideals or himself; he didn't even have a name.

    LOCH and ROCH was filled with powerful men filled and fueled with ego, namely, the 5 Greats. DGSD was filled with men who overcame or absolved their egos, from Xiao Yuanshan, Murong Bo, Jiumozhi to Xiao Feng.
    This just seems like you spouting abstract ideas and trying to idolize them into ideals. Someone with much more ego but is more gifted of a martial artist would be able to overcome Jade Maiden. Just because he didn't has nothing to do with ego. He still had ego after he retrieved 9 Yin, and voila he was able to overcome it. Not because of no ego mumbo jumbo, but because he had access to martial arts theory deeper than he could come up with himself.

    Guo Jing pretty much has no ego at all, yet he doesn't rise far above the rest. Those that absolved their egos in DGSD that you mentioned suddenly didn't become Sweeper godlike in martial arts. Plenty of people have no ego and suck at martial arts, and plenty of people have huge egos and are at the top of the world. Ego has nothing to do with it, except for random Buddhist philosophy which Sweeper happens to study.

  10. #30
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    It's not all about martial arts and winning and being the best. It's about keeping an open mind and an open heart.

    Was it just TVB that said Huang Shang took care of the last surviving member of the clan that cause him so much pain? He could very well have just left her to fend for herself as his revenge, instead, he cared for her until the end of her life. I'd say Huang Shang was quite a bit more enlightened than Wang Chongyang.
    Last edited by Dennis Chen; 10-13-09 at 07:42 PM.

  11. #31
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    It sounds more like spiritual enlightenment than anything, so I'm inclined to Tape's opinion that ego has nothing to do with the greats' abilities or improvements.

    It's just that sweeper is way above the rest that he doesn't need ego to think he's the best.

  12. #32
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    Jin Yong does seem to like to do that, doesn't he? Qiu Chuji seemed pretty awesome until the Greats appeared.
    Yau Chui Gei was different. At no time were readers/audiences led to believe that Yau Chui Gei's martial arts were the best or among the best in wulin at the time. No characters in the story spoke of him as such, and it didn't take long before he encountered martial artists who could match or defeat him (i.e. the collective Gong Nam 7 Freaks).

    The Greats, however, remained unsurpassed throughout LOCH and ROCH.

  13. #33
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    I still believe the supreme type characters are different from the greats in that they achieved enlightenment through martial arts.
    These guys are secluded and people don't really know about them except maybe Dugu who went on a hormone rage before he secluded himself. They don't really have any major political angendas etc.

    Then there's the greats who go around making their presence felt. Striving to out do one another or working on some political goal or giving in to ego, emotions and what have you.

  14. #34
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    It seems Zhang Sanfeng is as enlightened as any character is, yet he's most likely no better than any of the Greats.

    Xu Zhu, Shi Potian, the Xiao Yao Elders, Dugu (his name is Lonely seeking a loss...not very enlightened in the traditional sense eh?), Dongfong Bubai, are the rest of the powerhouses in the JY universe. I wouldn't exactly call any of them enlightened spiritually.

    You can't just selectively apply this enlightened concept because characters like Fang Zheng from SPW Sweeper in DGSD etc are awesome and enlightened. If you make the list I've made about people pretty unenlightened spiritually and see that they're pretty much just as strong, it's only logical to assume it doesn't have much to do with it. It's a pretty romantic concept that those who don't care and walk around in the clouds are the ones above the rest, but that simply isn't true, especially in the context of a subject like martial arts and fighting. Maybe in reciting books or something it'll have some merit.

    Who are the best athletes in the real world? Or the best boxers and performers? Usually it's the people who are most passionate and spend their lives devoted to it. There isn't some hermit on top of Mount Everest that is going to come and school Lebron.
    Last edited by tape; 10-13-09 at 10:06 PM.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    It seems Zhang Sanfeng is as enlightened as any character is, yet he's most likely no better than any of the Greats.

    Xu Zhu, Shi Potian, the Xiao Yao Elders, Dugu (his name is Lonely seeking a loss...not very enlightened in the traditional sense eh?), Dongfong Bubai, are the rest of the powerhouses in the JY universe. I wouldn't exactly call any of them enlightened spiritually.

    You can't just selectively apply this enlightened concept because characters like Fang Zheng from SPW Sweeper in DGSD etc are awesome and enlightened. If you make the list I've made about people pretty unenlightened spiritually and see that they're pretty much just as strong, it's only logical to assume it doesn't have much to do with it. It's a pretty romantic concept that those who don't care and walk around in the clouds are the ones above the rest, but that simply isn't true, especially in the context of a subject like martial arts and fighting. Maybe in reciting books or something it'll have some merit.

    Who are the best athletes in the real world? Or the best boxers and performers? Usually it's the people who are most passionate and spend their lives devoted to it. There isn't some hermit on top of Mount Everest that is going to come and school Lebron.
    To Zhang Sangfeng's merit, he did create Taiji quan but yeah, he may not be stronger than the rest but I would consider him enlightened. I'd let Dugu pass on that one because he built his reputation and name as a young man, I would consider when he went into seclusion is when he achieved enlightenment, but I parallel him with Musashi, who led a similar life, went into the mountains to live by himself and wrote down the book of 5 rings and his niten ichi style.

    What I mean is enlightenment through immersion in the martial arts. It's a concept close to the heart of most Eastern martial arts. So I would take it to be part of the wuxia world.
    I wouldn't consider Xu Zhu enlightened, he just took all the hard work everyone else did. Neither would I consider DFBB enlightened, granted he was kick *** powerful but he wasn't enlightened and in the end his flaws were what got him killed.

    Fang Zheng is awesome I give you that, but Xie Xun, XF and MRF's dads were both more detached than him when they let down their hair, but that's spiritual enlightenment I guess.

    Your points are valid and duly noted, but I enjoy my wuxia alot more thinking about enlightenment.

    As for mount everest. Maybe not there, but Mas Oyama spen 1.5 years secluded on Mt. Minobu to train, came down and created Kyokushin. Went around accepting challenges from all over and no one stood against him longer than a few minutes.

    Romanticism is awesome hey.

  16. #36
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    I am in a cynical mood today.

  17. #37
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    Janitor monk 's presence should be liken to Jueyuen, whose very high internal power pose more of a power base consciousness awareness to the ROCH Greats. But in DGSD's case that awareness do however translates into the dimension of martial threat because Sm was also highly knowledgable in martial arts unlike Jy in addition to his more superior internal power.

    But it doesn't make much of a mockery because of the Xiaofeng factor (wildcard) and if we approach internal power cultivation process from a bio-chronological perspective in terms of age. Conversely, we can make a similar case of Xf's martial genius that makes a mockery of the greats or an apparent great's superior like Sm. Its not that Sm is overrated as being far too overrated thanks to tv, well at least his display of internal was more justifiable than those overrated characters such as Jmz or Mrf.Keeping in mind that the two officially recognised 'Greats' in DGSD were Qf(Xf) and Mrf.

    The thing to note is, if one does not flush out the strong impressions from watching the tv adaptations that exaggerate to far greater proportions of Sm's prowess, then we need to remind those in discussion that the stand of those discussing on a particular thread stems from TV or the textual materials. There is a recognisable disparity between the tv series and the books.

    If that distinction, i mean the differences of sources of impression, for that is not set for in any argument would cause a lot of barriers by turning the discussion into an unhealthy argument. Speaking for myself i refused to be influenced by the tv versions of how the characters and battles were portrayed.
    Last edited by timeless; 10-14-09 at 05:59 AM.

  18. #38
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    For me, it isn't just about the martial arts and who is more powerful than who. My degree is in English literature, so I also enjoy looking at the characters and their motivations, their personalities and how it applies to their kung fu and vice versa, the martial arts as an allusion or expression of a character, the themes, etc. Don't get me wrong, I love to do that as much as anybody here but there's more to it than that and, than just trying to quantify everything.
    Last edited by Dennis Chen; 10-14-09 at 11:56 AM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    I guess for me, it isn't just about the martial arts and who is more powerful than who and to go even as far as trying to quatify it all; don't get me wrong, I love to do that as much as anybody here but there's more to it than that and . My degree is in English literature, so I also enjoy looking at the characters and their motivations, their personalities and how it applies to their kung fu and vice versa, the themes, the martial arts as an allusion or expression of a character, etc.
    You notice how martial arts in wuxia is like education in our modern world? The worth of a man is in the martial arts he has studied and achieved, everyone wants to learn from the best, learn the hidden techniques etc. and once in a while, a guy comes along and changes everything.

    Now, you do martial arts if you have a passion for it. Guys who don't have that love for biomechanics and can't put up with a little pain and injury don't end up doing it for long. Not many of the characters in Wuxia had their motivation to be the strongest, they learnt enough to do what they wanted in their lives.
    Guo Jing for his country and justice, Yang Guo to reunite with his love, DY and XZ don't even want to learn it.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    For me, it isn't just about the martial arts and who is more powerful than who. My degree is in English literature, so I also enjoy looking at the characters and their motivations, their personalities and how it applies to their kung fu and vice versa, the martial arts as an allusion or expression of a character, the themes, etc. Don't get me wrong, I love to do that as much as anybody here but there's more to it than that and, than just trying to quantify everything.
    I think that's fine, and of course there's much more to wuxia than just martial arts. The idea of the xia and ideals that no longer exist is definitely what attracts many of us to wuxia. It's just that if you're going to relate concepts and draw conclusions such as ego having an affect on martial arts development, expect that others like me might disagree with you because this is a forum after all. If you argue that Wang Chongyang is your favorite character because of certain character traits then I have no qualm and will just read your thoughts with interest. But if you argue that he's the greatest martial artist due to XYZ or ABC and I disagree, of course I'm going to explain why I see it another way.

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