At the end of ROCH, Jinlun Guoshi was superior to Guo Jing

[ChanceEncounter]

JLGS always had better internal energy than GJ. This was mentioned even during the initial encounter. After the skip, his energy improved greatly and his technique ascended a level. I think they're still roughly the same level, because even after the skip, he wasn't able to explicitly overpower ZBT.

The principle of ZBT having more internal than GJ may be sound, but ZBT has less stamina than GJ, so it is unknown how much that offsets.

[superboy]

Wasn't it just said that JLFS's strength was much greater than GJ's? Not his internal energy?

[Ken Cheng]

Wasn't it just said that JLFS's strength was much greater than GJ's? Not his internal energy?

Just when all was thought lost...

SUPERBOY TO THE RESCUE!!!


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[flyingfox2002]

In the JY universe, strength and inner energy is really the same. The level of inner energy is what sets one fighter apart from another.

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Hm, I was wondering what's the big deal about whether GJ > GW or GW > GJ. Now I realize that since YG defeated GW, if YG bashers acknowledged that GW is more powerful than GJ, then it would be essentially admitting that YG is more powerful than GJ too, and how can YG haters accept that even if it was true? I should have seen that from a mile away, but I just didn't bother to give it much thought.

Just a disclaimer: Although I like YG more than GJ as a novel character, I don't care about either's kung fu level. It would make no difference to me if GJ could beat up YG with his (GJ's) eyes closed and two arms and a leg tied up. Therefore, I have no opinion or preference whether GW or GJ or YG is more powerful.

[Ken Cheng]

I have no opinion or preference whether GW or GJ or YG is more powerful.

That's what they always say.

[flamer]

I can see that by addressing ZBT's reaction to YG's blows, it suggests that YG<GWM which is ok in terms of YG vs GJ as GJ<GWM.

I've always thought that GWM was the most powerful character in ROCH (its not often YG gets to feel himself dying and leaving XLN to get a power-up). Yang Guo even in his normal sad state should be on par with GJ's XL18Z and if he was in his happy mood (after reuniting with XLN), he would be <GJ/GWM, as evidenced by his losing fight with GWM.

[Ren Wo Xing]

I can see that by addressing ZBT's reaction to YG's blows, it suggests that YG<GWM which is ok in terms of YG vs GJ as GJ<GWM.

I've always thought that GWM was the most powerful character in ROCH (its not often YG gets to feel himself dying and leaving XLN to get a power-up). Yang Guo even in his normal sad state should be on par with GJ's XL18Z and if he was in his happy mood (after reuniting with XLN), he would be <GJ/GWM, as evidenced by his losing fight with GWM.

Yang Guo was winning, actually, until JLGS attacked Guo Xiang out of desperation.

[flamer]

Yang Guo was winning, actually, until JLGS attacked Guo Xiang out of desperation.

GLFW was not really losing but he saw himself in a bad state because of Yang Guo's techniques, not internal. Internal-wise GLFW should still be above YG. It was also stated that JLFW was wary that the platform was about to collapse, so he had to finish it quickly or perish with YG and GX.

[ChanceEncounter]

Either way, YG was either equal a little ahead. JLGS feared that he would lose within 100 moves. While his internal is greater than YG's, sure, that in itself isn't the be all and end all of who's stronger. YG's techniques are better than his and he offset that difference in internal power.

[flamer]

Either way, YG was either equal a little ahead. JLGS feared that he would lose within 100 moves. While his internal is greater than YG's, sure, that in itself isn't the be all and end all of who's stronger. YG's techniques are better than his and he offset that difference in internal power.

That is essentially correct but I thought this thread assumes that JLFW>GJ based on internal energy instead of entire fighting ability.

[Exodus]

GWM had better internal power than GJ but overall GJ might win but not without getting serious injured himself. At least GWM is better than ZWJ who is a major choker

[Ken Cheng]

GWM had better internal power than GJ but overall GJ might win but not without getting serious injured himself.

I've long found it weird how in L/ROCH, with the exception of North Beggar Hung 7 Gung and West Poison Au Yeung Fung on Mt. Hua in ROCH, most battles between Greats ended up with one or both fighters walking away without a scratch. With that much deadly power being thrown around, SOMEBODY should get hurt each time.

At least GWM is better than ZWJ who is a major choker

Both are chokers extraodinaires. At least Cheung Mo Gei has inexperience as an excuse.

[Exodus]

I've long found it weird how in L/ROCH, with the exception of North Beggar Hung 7 Gung and West Poison Au Yeung Fung on Mt. Hua in ROCH, most battles between Greats ended up with one or both fighters walking away without a scratch. With that much deadly power being thrown around, SOMEBODY should get hurt each time.

most battles between the greats were friendly battles and not death battles. When you reach a level as a great you have such control over your inner power that it makes sense that they can walk away without getting hurt.

[flamer]

Yea, look at how the small number of death-matches turned out... H7F and OYF dead, GLFW dead... what a pity...

[Ren Wo Xing]

That is essentially correct but I thought this thread assumes that JLFW>GJ based on internal energy instead of entire fighting ability.

No; this thread tries to prove that. It's incredibly hard to balance 'entire fighting ability', but luckily, Jinyong already does that, since when GJ and JLGS actually fought, they were said to be equal in actual battle, and it would take hundreds of stances to determine superiority, if that; therefore, all I have to show is the change of a single variable in the favor of one direction, without a corresponding variable change in the other, and presto! The balance between GJ and JLGS is tilted.

[flamer]

No; this thread tries to prove that. It's incredibly hard to balance 'entire fighting ability', but luckily, Jinyong already does that, since when GJ and JLGS actually fought, they were said to be equal in actual battle, and it would take hundreds of stances to determine superiority, if that; therefore, all I have to show is the change of a single variable in the favor of one direction, without a corresponding variable change in the other, and presto! The balance between GJ and JLGS is tilted.

Yes I very much agree with that. What you have quoted was my response to ChanceEncounter's theory of bringing techniques into the comparison of post-16 JLFW.

I think it is not fair to include YG's fight with JLFW to induce that YG was as good if not better than GLFW and since GLFW is better than GJ, then YG>GJ.

[ChanceEncounter]

Yes I very much agree with that. What you have quoted was my response to ChanceEncounter's theory of bringing techniques into the comparison of post-16 JLFW.

I think it is not fair to include YG's fight with JLFW to induce that YG was as good if not better than GLFW and since GLFW is better than GJ, then YG>GJ.

Maybe. Maybe not.

We know that technically speaking, JLGS's internal was probably greater than YG's as well as GJ's. YG's techniques was able to overcome JLGS's, in part because of the weirdness of his palms, and then because of overwhelming sadness. We don't know how he would fair against GJ, because it is unknown how YG's internal would stack against him (my guess is they are roughly on the same level), or how their techniques would stack against him (they are also probably roughly on the same level).

Fights are difficult to apply the transitive method.

[flamer]

Maybe. Maybe not.

We know that technically speaking, JLGS's internal was probably greater than YG's as well as GJ's. YG's techniques was able to overcome JLGS's, in part because of the weirdness of his palms, and then because of overwhelming sadness. We don't know how he would fair against GJ, because it is unknown how YG's internal would stack against him (my guess is they are roughly on the same level), or how their techniques would stack against him (they are also probably roughly on the same level).

Fights are difficult to apply the transitive method.

Exactly, thats why I said we should not use YG's fight with JLFW to gauge YG personally with GJ.

[pannonian]

Exactly, thats why I said we should not use YG's fight with JLFW to gauge YG personally with GJ.

There are no common links by which we can judge the ability and potential performance of GJ at the end of ROCH. Post-16 years, GJ fights some scrubs in the attempted rescue of GX, but he doesn't have any common opponents with any other significant figure, so there is nothing to gauge his ability by. We know more about WCY's abilities than GJ's abilities post-16 years.

[Snafu3721]

Not going to quote everything that was already written but continuing with Ren's and Chrono's previous arguments:

Ren, you mentioned that the sanskrit portion should not be vastly superior to the rest of 9-Yin. Although there is no solid statement that says "sanskrit portion is X times more powerful" in the novel, one can assume that it is very powerful indeed. Because it allowed H7G to fully regen his chi after being struck by OYF when it was thought that he'd loose his kung fu forever. And like Chrono mentioned before, if it wasn't the MOST important portion of 9-Yin, then there is no point for the creator to try and code it in a different language (one that is usually learned by monks who cultivate a sense of peace as to not abuse power).

Also one can't assume that the growth rate for internal energy is constant for two QZ practitioners. Just because they learned the same set of breathing exercises doesn't mean they will end up with the same results.

And using a relatively simple comparison we see that GJ's internal does in fact improve much faster than most greats:

1) ZBT is never proven to have more internal than a Great in LOCH. He beat HYS on Peach Blossom island due to 9-Yin techniques mostly. In fact ZBT himself claimed he can leave the island because he has "L/R technique", not because his chi surpassed HYS. So nothing is known about ZBT's internal relative to any other Great all the way through ROCH

2) It was clear that OYF was superior to the rest of the Greats (except ZBT) by the end of the LOCH. GJ, who wasn't a Great in LOCH, was able to catch up to OYF by ROCH-- hinting his internal growth is faster.

So Premise 1 is not accurate about ZBT's internal being stronger than GJ's.

Premise 3 is also flawed because no one knows how much GJ's martial arts had improved pre and post 16 yrs. There is no evidence for or against this argument. So we can't use something that isn't fact. How much GJ really improved is up to the reader. When I first read the story, I felt that GJ became the strongest fighter in Wulin, but that was my opinion.

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Onto the extrapolations-

Extrapolation 1, where ZBT should be able to take on GWM's blows during hero's meet is not proven. It is highly likely that ZBT can, but that has nothing to do with how much stronger or weaker he is than GJ. For all we know, during the Hero meet ZBT could be > than GJ on internal but still < than GWM. Or ZBT could be weaker in technique than GJ significantly because he doesn't have a modified XL18P. So there is no evidence proving anything on ZBT's ability in comparison to GJ or GWM.

Extrapolation 2 that GWM may have much more internal than ZBT post 16 yrs makes sense. But proves nothing about GJ in comparison to ZBT.

Extrapolation 3 that GWM >ZBT> GJ post 16 yrs is true... well, that depends again on if you believe premise 1-3.

Extrapolation 4 that GJ didn't improve external wise pre and post 16yrs and should be a wash relative to GWM's external could be true.

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The conclusion:

There is nothing that points to ZBT being able to defeat GJ in any of the time frame of ROCH using GWM as a measuring stick.

And just for thought:

Z3F in HSDS, who is regarded as one of the top martial artists in Jinyong for his wisdom and talent also said in ed 2 that post Qiankun bag ZWJ at full power 9-yang was equal to GJ's internal. It says something about GJ's internal energy