At the end of ROCH, Jinlun Guoshi was superior to Guo Jing

[flamer]

And just for thought:

Z3F in HSDS, who is regarded as one of the top martial artists in Jinyong for his wisdom and talent also said in ed 2 that post Qiankun bag ZWJ at full power 9-yang was equal to GJ's internal. It says something about GJ's internal energy

The same was also said for Yang Guo, Jue Yuan etc. And we probably know YG's internal is at best equal to GWM.

[duguxiaojing]

Zhou Botong does have martial arts that can take on hard blows head on; he took on Yang Guo's powerful Sad Palms using a hard, strong form of martial arts from 9 Ying named the 'Fumoquan', the 'Demon Subduing Fist'.

IMO ZBT could take on GWM's full power palm attack. However, he may have just been too scared to and relied on HMK instead. Reason: as you mentioned before he clashed palms with YG (and only seemed somewhat inferior). We've seen GWM and YG go palm to palm with no clear winner. Therefore ZBT= YG in palm power(roughly) and YG=GWM and finally GWM=ZBT. The line where JY stated ZBT had never faced someone with such a powerful palm technique seems to be wrong.

[PJ]

We've seen GWM and YG go palm to palm with no clear winner.

Yang Guo was having trouble withstanding a direct clash with GWM. See here:

十六年前法王已非自己对手，何以今日他一掌击下，自己竟会险些儿招架不住？

The line where JY stated ZBT had never faced someone with such a powerful palm technique seems to be wrong.

Yang Guo said the same thing:

杨过但觉法王掌管力沉雄坚实，生平敌手之中从未见过

I think both of their opinions are reliable.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Not going to quote everything that was already written but continuing with Ren's and Chrono's previous arguments:

Ren, you mentioned that the sanskrit portion should not be vastly superior to the rest of 9-Yin. Although there is no solid statement that says "sanskrit portion is X times more powerful" in the novel, one can assume that it is very powerful indeed. Because it allowed H7G to fully regen his chi after being struck by OYF when it was thought that he'd loose his kung fu forever. And like Chrono mentioned before, if it wasn't the MOST important portion of 9-Yin, then there is no point for the creator to try and code it in a different language (one that is usually learned by monks who cultivate a sense of peace as to not abuse power).

The reason I discount it is because there is no credible proof that the sanskrit portion really did anything for Guo Jing at all, or, for that matter, Yideng (aside from serving as a plot point for the healing of HQG/YD). GJ's performance against QQR (before sanskrit) and against HYS/HQG (after sanskrit) seem to be roughly the same; moreover, there was never any mention afterwards of any particular benefit of the sanskrit for, say, Yideng, who should have had at least as good an understanding of it as GJ (since he taught it to GJ after all); after all, we know that pre-ROCH, YD~QQR, and we know that in ROCH, YD~QQR; so the sanskrit portion doesn't seem to have done jack all for anybody.

Also one can't assume that the growth rate for internal energy is constant for two QZ practitioners. Just because they learned the same set of breathing exercises doesn't mean they will end up with the same results.

Actually, it is specifically stated in the novel that Quanzhen energy grows faster, the longer you practice it; ZBT has had decades more experience practicing Quanzhen energy, so putting his growth rate on the same level as Guo Jing's growth rate is already giving Guo Jing a huge bump.

Bunch of stuff

I'm ignoring this for now, since I think you completely misunderstood/flipped around my argument. Please see below

There is nothing that points to ZBT being able to defeat GJ in any of the time frame of ROCH using GWM as a measuring stick.

I think you are not reading this properly. I don't really care about whether or not ZBT can defeat GJ, and that isn't my argument; I'm making the exact opposite case, namely, that JLGS should be able to defeat GJ, using ZBT as the measuring stick. You flipped everything around.

Please reread the argument with that in mind, then give me your thoughts

[Ren Ying Ying]

The reason I discount it is because there is no credible proof that the sanskrit portion really did anything for Guo Jing at all, or, for that matter, Yideng (aside from serving as a plot point for the healing of HQG/YD). GJ's performance against QQR (before sanskrit) and against HYS/HQG (after sanskrit) seem to be roughly the same; moreover, there was never any mention afterwards of any particular benefit of the sanskrit for, say, Yideng, who should have had at least as good an understanding of it as GJ (since he taught it to GJ after all); after all, we know that pre-ROCH, YD~QQR, and we know that in ROCH, YD~QQR; so the sanskrit portion doesn't seem to have done jack all for anybody.

wasn't there something of a one or two year gap (can't remember) between GJ knowing sanskrit and his fight with HYS/HQG...and in between it was stated that his martial arts had vastly improved? Though, of course the entire first volume of 9 yin focused on internal energy practice...thus, it is not only limited to the sankrit version. still, there should be a difference between GJ "actively" practicing 9 yin and ZBT "inactively" practicing 9 yin.

Actually, it is specifically stated in the novel that Quanzhen energy grows faster, the longer you practice it; ZBT has had decades more experience practicing Quanzhen energy, so putting his growth rate on the same level as Guo Jing's growth rate is already giving Guo Jing a huge bump.

if the statements about QZ energy is indeed true...then while ZBT was already "slightly" better than the "Greats" in LOCH, then why is he not "LEAPS" ahead of the Greats in ROCH? in fact, aside from the little statement at the end of ROCH which suggested that ZBT was only minuitely better than HYS & YD, all other evidences suggest that they are "roughly equal".

[Snafu3721]

The same was also said for Yang Guo, Jue Yuan etc. And we probably know YG's internal is at best equal to GWM.

That was inlcluded in the 3rd version. Prior to that, I believe that Z3F only mentioned "great hero GJ." Going to double check that

[Ren Wo Xing]

wasn't there something of a one or two year gap (can't remember) between GJ knowing sanskrit and his fight with HYS/HQG...and in between it was stated that his martial arts had vastly improved? Though, of course the entire first volume of 9 yin focused on internal energy practice...thus, it is not only limited to the sankrit version. still, there should be a difference between GJ "actively" practicing 9 yin and ZBT "inactively" practicing 9 yin.

Nah. There was not, as far as I can discern, much of a difference during that year; certainly much less than the year that proceeded it, if there was any. Also, both of them had Quanzhen base, with 9 Yin augmentation.

if the statements about QZ energy is indeed true...then while ZBT was already "slightly" better than the "Greats" in LOCH, then why is he not "LEAPS" ahead of the Greats in ROCH? in fact, aside from the little statement at the end of ROCH which suggested that ZBT was only minuitely better than HYS & YD, all other evidences suggest that they are "roughly equal".

What I 'really' think? Same reason why Wang Chongyang took 7 days to beat the Greats, yet is still supposed to be as good/superior to them in ROCH. Jinyong's obsession to keep them all on roughly the same level, no matter how little sense it might make at times.

The 'explanation'? Well, in ROCH, Yideng not only knows YYZ, but was also taught Xiantian by Wang Chongyang; therefore, not only does he also have Quanzhen internal energy, but a more advanced version of it than Zhou Botong had. Whereas Huang Yaoshi most likely did have less internal energy than the other two, but his brilliance (his intelligence was unarguably the highest amongst the Greats) and the exquisiteness of his technique made up for it. Regardless though, it's not easy to gauge his internal energy in ROCH, since he doesn't have much of an appearance, compared to the other Greats.

[Snafu3721]

Actually, it is specifically stated in the novel that Quanzhen energy grows faster, the longer you practice it; ZBT has had decades more experience practicing Quanzhen energy, so putting his growth rate on the same level as Guo Jing's growth rate is already giving Guo Jing a huge bump.

Using this as an example, then ZBT would've beaten the other Greats easily in internal. But it seems like his internal growth wasn't that spectacular considering that HYS always kept one step ahead on Peach Blossom island prior GJ's arrival. Not to mention that GJ was still able to catch up to the greats by ROCH, implying (not necessarily stated) that it must be something OTHER than QZ internal methods.



About the other things-- I'm not trying to flip the argument =P. From how I read it, I assume you are saying GWM at the end of ROCH is greater in internal compared with ZBT, thus GWM SHOULD be better than GJ.

But what I'm trying to argue is that the reasoning for stating ZBT > GJ has not been confirmed. Thus, without really establishing that ZBT is better than GJ, we can't say GWM is better than GJ.

There just isn't enough fact throughout ROCH to even compare GJ to ZBT pre and post 16 yrs.

[flamer]

That was inlcluded in the 3rd version. Prior to that, I believe that Z3F only mentioned "great hero GJ." Going to double check that

Indeed, before 3rd Edition, only Jue Yuan and Guo Jing were mentioned. I think Jinyong didn't want to offend YG's fans...

[duguxiaojing]

Yang Guo was having trouble withstanding a direct clash with GWM. See here:

The same could be said for GWM as well. A paragraph or two above the one you quoted it was stated that both were shocked at the other's improvement (in either inner power or martial arts depending on how you translate it.) There was no clear winner in that single palm clash or any suggestion that YG's palm strength was inferior.

[pannonian]

The 'explanation'? Well, in ROCH, Yideng not only knows YYZ, but was also taught Xiantian by Wang Chongyang; therefore, not only does he also have Quanzhen internal energy, but a more advanced version of it than Zhou Botong had. Whereas Huang Yaoshi most likely did have less internal energy than the other two, but his brilliance (his intelligence was unarguably the highest amongst the Greats) and the exquisiteness of his technique made up for it. Regardless though, it's not easy to gauge his internal energy in ROCH, since he doesn't have much of an appearance, compared to the other Greats.

HYS' internal may be slightly lesser, given that he needs to do his walking exercises to augment his powers, as in his flute versus stick duel with Guo Jing. My guess would be that HYS has slightly inferior internal to the other Greats, but he has both the most complex techniques (his palm. acupoint, sword, formation and other techniques) and the most focused (flicking finger), which allows him to compete on the same level. Perhaps his walking diagrams worked similarly to Xiaoyao's graceful steps.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Using this as an example, then ZBT would've beaten the other Greats easily in internal. But it seems like his internal growth wasn't that spectacular considering that HYS always kept one step ahead on Peach Blossom island prior GJ's arrival. Not to mention that GJ was still able to catch up to the greats by ROCH, implying (not necessarily stated) that it must be something OTHER than QZ internal methods.

ZBT could not beat Huang Yaoshi because ZBT of the time did not know a single Greats-level technique.

About the other things-- I'm not trying to flip the argument =P. From how I read it, I assume you are saying GWM at the end of ROCH is greater in internal compared with ZBT, thus GWM SHOULD be better than GJ.

But what I'm trying to argue is that the reasoning for stating ZBT > GJ has not been confirmed. Thus, without really establishing that ZBT is better than GJ, we can't say GWM is better than GJ.

There just isn't enough fact throughout ROCH to even compare GJ to ZBT pre and post 16 yrs.

I'm not comparing them; I'm comparing their growth rates, which should be determined primarily by the Quanzhen internal energy, fortified with 9Ying. And Quanzhen energy growth is stated to be based upon the length of practice; therefore, putting Guo Jing's growth even equal to ZBT's is already giving Guo Jing an advantage. And if we know that JLGS's growth outpaces ZBT's growth, then unless Guo Jing grew significantly faster than ZBT, JLGS's internal energy vis a vis Guo Jing should be even superior to pre-16 years. With their external skills remaining the same, this would mean that JLGS>GJ.

[Ren Wo Xing]

HYS' internal may be slightly lesser, given that he needs to do his walking exercises to augment his powers, as in his flute versus stick duel with Guo Jing. My guess would be that HYS has slightly inferior internal to the other Greats, but he has both the most complex techniques (his palm. acupoint, sword, formation and other techniques) and the most focused (flicking finger), which allows him to compete on the same level. Perhaps his walking diagrams worked similarly to Xiaoyao's graceful steps.

I agree; I have always felt that out of the four original Greats, Hong Qigong's internal energy was the most fierce, Yideng's internal energy was the deepest and purest, Ouyang Feng's internal energy was the strangest, and HYS's was the most exquisite (in terms of technique and delivery).

[ChanceEncounter]

I'm not comparing them; I'm comparing their growth rates, which should be determined primarily by the Quanzhen internal energy, fortified with 9Ying. And Quanzhen energy growth is stated to be based upon the length of practice; therefore, putting Guo Jing's growth even equal to ZBT's is already giving Guo Jing an advantage. And if we know that JLGS's growth outpaces ZBT's growth, then unless Guo Jing grew significantly faster than ZBT, JLGS's internal energy vis a vis Guo Jing should be even superior to pre-16 years. With their external skills remaining the same, this would mean that JLGS>GJ.

So how is it that YG was able to catch up to them in internal over the sixteen year gap? His Quanzhen certainly isn't near GJ and ZBT's, and his 9 Yin understanding is almost certainly not better than theirs, but his internal was greatly able to close the gap between GJ and ZBT, indicating that there may have been a bunch of other factors at work.

[Ren Wo Xing]

So how is it that YG was able to catch up to them in internal over the sixteen year gap? His Quanzhen certainly isn't near GJ and ZBT's, and his 9 Yin understanding is almost certainly not better than theirs, but his internal was greatly able to close the gap between GJ and ZBT, indicating that there may have been a bunch of other factors at work.

By far the majority of it came from those gallbladders, I would imagine. Those things are the haxx0r.

[ChanceEncounter]

By far the majority of it came from those gallbladders, I would imagine. Those things are the haxx0r.

Well, prior to the 16 year gap, Yang Guo's internal energy was good, but it likely wasn't on the same level as the greats. After the gap, his internal seemd to have caught up to everyone except Yideng.

And yeah, the gallbladders are pretty hax. Makes me wonder how much internal the Condor must have for eating those everyday.

[the.raven]

By far the majority of it came from those gallbladders, I would imagine. Those things are the haxx0r.

damn, I want to eat some of those.

[ChronoReverse]

Anyway, if we assumed everything said here is true, GJ's internal energy progress had a catastrophic dip in progress at one point

[duguxiaojing]

RE: Chanceencounter

The gall bladder's played a huge role, but it was the unorthodox method of training at the south sea gave YG such a fast boost. 1Deng himself wondered how YG developed such an agressive inner power at such a age, and Jin Yong mentioned that it was due to training in the centre of the waves. (See ROCH when YG was roaring to draw Ying Gu out of her hut)

[Ren Ying Ying]

RE: Chanceencounter

The gall bladder's played a huge role, but it was the unorthodox method of training at the south sea gave YG such a fast boost. 1Deng himself wondered how YG developed such an agressive inner power at such a age, and Jin Yong mentioned that it was due to training in the centre of the waves. (See ROCH when YG was roaring to draw Ying Gu out of her hut)

not to mention that it was never mentioned that he ever ate more gallbladders after returning to Dugu's cave during his wait for the 16 years.

Nah. There was not, as far as I can discern, much of a difference during that year; certainly much less than the year that proceeded it, if there was any. Also, both of them had Quanzhen base, with 9 Yin augmentation.

from LOCH Ch. 37 (ed 2) "此时郭靖早已将《九阴真经》上的《易筋锻骨篇》练成，既得一灯大师译授了真经总纲，经上其他的功夫也已练 了不少，内力的精纯浑厚更是大非昔比"

whether or not his performance against others seemed to be different or not, it appears that Jin Yong claims Guo Jing's internal energy is vastly different from before due to the practice of 9 yin arts.

What I 'really' think? Same reason why Wang Chongyang took 7 days to beat the Greats, yet is still supposed to be as good/superior to them in ROCH. Jinyong's obsession to keep them all on roughly the same level, no matter how little sense it might make at times.

I do agree that Jin Yong had the intention of keeping all the top level fighters roughly equal, hence why I still believe Guo Jing is in the same vicinity as the rest of them, despite his extremely quick improvement rates earlier on in life (between LOCH & ROCH). I believe it is just harder to improve as people reach to higher levels (stated in novel), unless they approached new breakthroughs (ie, new ways of training or specific leveling). in other words, i don't believe any of that doubling power BS.

Still, I find it dubious that "actively praciticing 9 yin+QZ" marks little difference from "unconciously practicing 9 yin+QZ". I beleive Jin Yong still intended for "active 9 Yin practicing" to give Guo Jing a faster improvement rate than just "QZ+subconcious 9 yin theories" --at least in the early years.

The 'explanation'? Well, in ROCH, Yideng not only knows YYZ, but was also taught Xiantian by Wang Chongyang; therefore, not only does he also have Quanzhen internal energy, but a more advanced version of it than Zhou Botong had. Whereas Huang Yaoshi most likely did have less internal energy than the other two, but his brilliance (his intelligence was unarguably the highest amongst the Greats) and the exquisiteness of his technique made up for it. Regardless though, it's not easy to gauge his internal energy in ROCH, since he doesn't have much of an appearance, compared to the other Greats.

Yi Deng had also practiced Xiantian in LOCH. Yet, no evidence in LOCH had suggested him to be better in internal energy than any of the other original Greats. as for Huang Yaoshi, according to Jinlun Guoshi's judgement, his internal power should no weaker than Zhou Botong's. Even if JLGS's judgement is a bit off, it is still very likely that Huang Yaoshi's internal energy is still within the vicinity of Zhou Botongs. In other words, that Quanzhen energy of Zhou Botong's had really not given him too much of a difference from Huang Yaoshi's.