At the end of ROCH, Jinlun Guoshi was superior to Guo Jing

[Ren Wo Xing]

Got your attention, didn't it

I'd like to start this off with a comment that I personally don't really 'believe' the argument I am about to make, and I don't think the conclusion was JY's original intent either; however, I think the logic is pretty compelling. I don't think it is ironclad, or unsinkable...but I think the evidence on 'my' side is stronger than the evidence against it. More than anything else, this is an exercise in analysis and logic.

Interested? Watch this post.

THE PREMISES:

Premise #1: Guo Jing's internal energy, at any given point throughout LOCH or ROCH, is always inferior to Zhou Botong. This is because they have the exact same internal energy base; Quanzhen energy, mixed with Jiuyin principles. This is a very powerful combination of internal energy, that is said to grow no matter what, even if you are just sleeping, and that the more internal energy you have, the faster it grows. However, Zhou Botong started out at a higher level than Guo Jing, and we know for a fact that as of the end of LOCH, Guo Jing's internal energy was still lower than Zhou Botong. Therefore, unless Guo Jing practices martial arts and cultivating his internal energy much more than Zhou Botong does (an assertion which has no textual evidence and, in fact, is contrary to their respective characters), Guo Jing's internal energy should thus always be inferior to Zhou Botong's. And, due to the nature of Quanzhen energy, the growth of his internal energy should also always be inferior to Zhou Botong's as well.

Premise #2: Guo Jing was, at the time of the fights he had with Jinlun Guoshi, on par with Jinlun Guoshi. This was stated multiple times by Jinyong, and I think we all know this by now. In their exchanges, it was stated that Jinlun Guoshi was stronger, but Guo Jing's palm technique was exquisited; hundreds of stances would have to be exchanged before any sort of determination of superiority could be made. Now, pay attention, because this is important: At the time of the fight with Jinlun Guoshi, Guo Jing had no problems directly taking on Jinlun Guoshi's powerful blows.

Premise #3: Guo Jing's external martial arts did not improve, or substantially improve, during the 16 year gap. I see this for a simple reason: There is no evidence at all to suggest that he developed any new martial arts, and he himself admitted that his XLSBZ "has not seen action for a number of years", by the time of Guo Xiang's birthday. If he's developed nothing new, and if he hasn't been actively using the old, how much can his external martial arts improve by? Of course, all martial artists improve with time and experience, but there is nothing to indicate Guo Jing's external martial arts improved by much at all (or any more than any other martial artist at his level would).

THE EXTRAPOLATIONS:

Extrapolation #1: Based on the first two premises, if we accept them as correct, we can conclude that at the time of the first Heroes Gathering, where Guo Jing and Jinlun Guoshi fought, Zhou Botong could also directly take on Jinlun Guoshi's powerful blows. If Guo Jing could take on Jinlun Guoshi's palms, and Zhou Botong's internal energy was higher than that of Guo Jing, there is no reason why Zhou Botong could not take on Jinlun Guoshi's palms as well. This is important.

Extrapolation #2: Jinlun Guoshi's internal energy improved more in the 16 years interval than Zhou Botong. Based upon extrapolation #1, Zhou Botong should have been able to directly take on the palm attacks of Jinlun Guoshi, pre-16 years; however, we know for a fact that he did not dare take them on post-16 years, and instead was forced to fight extremely defensively, using his Vacant Fist, Kongmingquan to deflect Jinlun Guoshi's awesome power. If Zhou Botong should have been able to take his power head-on pre-16 years, but is not able to take it on post-16 years, then we know for a fact that Jinlun Guoshi's improvement in internal energy was considerably greater than that of Zhou Botong.

Extrapolation #3: If we accept extrapolation #2 to make sense, then based upon extrapolation #2 and premise #1, Jinlun Guoshi's internal energy therefore also improved more than that of Guo Jing in those 16 years. We know that Zhou Botong has more internal energy than Guo Jing; we also know that Guo Jing's internal energy should not grow faster than Zhou Botong (or at least, there is not a shred of textual support for this). Therefore, logically speaking, Jinlun Guoshi's internal energy growth should be more pronounced than his.

Extrapolation #4: If we accept premise #3 to be correct, then post-16 years, the ratio-level of Jinlun Guoshi's external martial arts, compared to the level of Guo Jing's external martial arts, should be no worse than it was pre-16 years; there's not much evidence that Guo Jing's external martial arts improved much, and although there is a little evidence which Jinlun Guoshi's may have improved (witness the new martial arts he passed down to Da'erba), there also isn't enough to show a substantial change, much like Guo Jing. So we'll call their external martial arts a wash, ratio-wise.

THE CONCLUSION:

If we accept the above to be correct, then this means that the relative level of internal energy of Guo Jing and Jinlun Guoshi post-16 years is now more in Jinlun Guoshi's favor, whereas their relative external martial arts remains the same. This, then, would indicate that Jinlun Guoshi, who was previously only on par with Guo Jing, has now surpassed him.

[Ken Cheng]

No, just NO!

KNEEL BEFORE MOD!

Where's Wu Wudi when I need him?!

Hellfire, brimstone...forty years of darkness...dogs and cats living together!

Sandwiches! Sandwiches!

Your dad is fat! My dad is fat?!

Woo hoo!

[Ren Ying Ying]

No, just NO!

KNEEL BEFORE MOD!

Where's Wu Wudi when I need him?!

Hellfire, brimstone...forty years of darkness...dogs and cats living together!

Sandwiches! Sandwiches!

Your dad is fat! My dad is fat?!

Woo hoo!

that did it. ken has officially gone berserks

[Ken Cheng]

that did it. ken has officially gone berserks

DOGPILE ON JIN YONG!

MR. JIN, WHO WOULD WIN BETWEEN GWOK JING AND YEUNG GOR?

KUBLAI KHAN'S CONCUBINE WOULD! BWAHAHAHAH!

GLASSES FALLING DOWN SCREAMING! WHITE SHIRT! BLACKHAIRED GEEK! FAT! FAT! SCREAMING ON TOP OF JIN YONG! SHAKY FINGERS HOTEL ROOM CARPET BURN! HOOOO HOOOO!

GWOK JING IS BETTER THAN YEUNG GOR BECAUSE GULONG IS A RACIST!

WHAHAHAAHAH!

[ChronoReverse]

Erm, isn't your very first point already wrong, RWX? GJ had access to the all-important Sanskrit portion of 9 Yin which ZBT never understood. Furthermore, GJ actively practiced 9 Yin while ZBT only actively practiced QZ internal enhanced by 9 Yin.





Even with equal internal energy, that doesn't mean that ZBT can take GWM's attack head on if he doesn't have a move like HL18P sufficient for it (Vacuum Fists may be the only technique he has that's capable of that). Furthermore, Vacuum Fists isn't merely "deflecting" blows. Being an internal technique, it moves internal energy to dissipate force except it has the bonus that it can recoup the energy expense making it very efficient.

In the end it doesn't matter if ZBT was "softening" GWM blows, because in a fight, if he's saving energy like that, it only means he's winning. Furthermore, against someone else's top move, you have to use your own. ZBT was dead even with GWM with Vacuum Fists; neither could prevail until one gets exhausted. This was the same against YD (neither would have won for a while and likely both would have been exhausted).

[Ren Wo Xing]

Erm, isn't your very first point already wrong, RWX? GJ had access to the all-important Sanskrit portion of 9 Yin which ZBT never understood. Furthermore, GJ actively practiced 9 Yin while ZBT only actively practiced QZ internal enhanced by 9 Yin.

This was going to be one of the few 'counter-points' I would bring up later (still typing this out as we speak); however, I think the evidence suggesting that the Sanskrit portion of 9 Yin was vastly superior to the rest of 9 Yin to be weak; more on this later.

Even with equal internal energy, that doesn't mean that ZBT can take GWM's attack head on if he doesn't have a move like HL18P sufficient for it (Vacuum Fists may be the only technique he has that's capable of that). Furthermore, Vacuum Fists isn't merely "deflecting" blows. Being an internal technique, it moves internal energy to dissipate force except it has the bonus that it can recoup the energy expense making it very efficient.

Zhou Botong does have martial arts that can take on hard blows head on; he took on Yang Guo's powerful Sad Palms using a hard, strong form of martial arts from 9 Ying named the 'Fumoquan', the 'Demon Subduing Fist'.

In the end it doesn't matter if ZBT was "softening" GWM blows, because in a fight, if he's saving energy like that, it only means he's winning. Furthermore, against someone else's top move, you have to use your own. ZBT was dead even with GWM with Vacuum Fists; neither could prevail until one gets exhausted. This was the same against YD (neither would have won for a while and likely both would have been exhausted).

It doesn't matter if ZBT was 'winning' or 'losing'; in the context of this argument, it doesn't matter. It only matters that his internal energy was not high enough to take on GWM's blows head on, even though it was high enough to take on Yang Guo's, using 'hard' styles. And btw, YD was clearly losing (why do you think Huang Rong was getting so worried?)...but that's something else entirely.

[ChronoReverse]

He took it on, but it was hardly a full powered blast from YG using his sad-mode powers. I don't see any reason why a technique mentioned so briefly should be placed on the level of techniques like HL18P, YYZ and Vacuum Fists.



As for the Sanskrit portion, it was put into Sanskrit because it was important enough to be a key pivot of 9 Yin. If that's not a voucher for its importance, I don't know what is.

GJ had to catch up to the Greats in the beginning of ROCH meaning he was gaining faster than the Greats. Unless he slowed down by a huge chunk, how can ZBT be superior after 16-years if he was only about as good as YD?

It doesn't matter if ZBT was 'winning' or 'losing'; in the context of this argument, it doesn't matter. It only matters that his internal energy was not high enough to take on GWM's blows head on, even though it was high enough to take on Yang Guo's, using 'hard' styles. And btw, YD was clearly losing (why do you think Huang Rong was getting so worried?)...but that's something else entirely.

But we know that ZBT doesn't have a direct Yang attack truly on the level of HL18P. High internal energy isn't always applied in blunt manners; it takes just as much power to use it softly (except it's more efficient when used softly). In any case, isn't it just caution to use your best skill against something really powerful you haven't seen before?

And you can't really fully compare it to the duel with YG because that was sparring and this was a fight to the death where you can't make any mistake.



Huang Rong was worried for good reason. Even if YD was slightly above to GWM's level (I doubt that), they'd BOTH still be seriously injured or die. If you can make it so that your side can win cleanly, would you not do that?

Plus it said that HR saw that YD kept gathering his internal energy... implying that YD had not yet applied his all either. If YD ended up gathering his full internal energy, even if he won, he'd be seriously injured too (and vice versa for GWM).



There's also another problem with your first premise. GJ was more suited for QZ internal energy than ZBT was. ZBT was crazy about martial arts, but QZ internal energy requires a tranquil heart and quiet focus for maximum effect. This was one of the reasons why GJ was so good at it; he could really focus on one thing at a time. ZBT's heart was definitely about martial arts, but at the same time he can be distracted relatively easily PLUS his heart was still slightly disturbed by the Ying Goo incident. There was enough gap for HYS to exploit him using his flute song so it definitely was present even if small.

[Ren Wo Xing]

But we know that ZBT doesn't have a direct Yang attack truly on the level of HL18P. High internal energy isn't always applied in blunt manners; it takes just as much power to use it softly (except it's more efficient when used softly).

We don't know that; the Demon Subduing Fist was a technique from the 9 Ying manual. How crappy do you think it was? Moreover, using high internal energy to toss out powerful attacks is one of the easiest ways to use high internal energy; just look at You Tanzhi. The novel specifically states that Zhou Botong was afraid to meet his power head on; this is proof that his internal energy was lower.

"Zhou Botong was startled and did not dare to receive the blow straight on. [...] Zhou Botong felt that his opponent’s power was incredible; he had never experienced something like this before. Zhou Botong loved martial arts and whenever he met someone who had a special skill he would challenge that individual to a duel. He had encountered numerous martial artists in his life; but even he had never heard of, or seen, such strong power as released by Fawang."

And Huang Rong was worried for good reason. Even if YD was slightly above to GWM's level (I doubt that), they'd BOTH still be seriously injured or die. If you can make it so that your side can win cleanly, would you not do that?

Plus it said that HR saw that YD kept gathering his internal energy... implying that YD had not yet applied his all either. If YD ended up gathering his full internal energy, even if he won, he'd be seriously injured too (and vice versa for GWM).

There was zero evidence that Jinlun Guoshi was in any sort of trouble at all, and only evidence that Yideng was.

Huang Rong was observing from the side and saw that the condensation emitted from Reverend Yideng’s head was becoming denser and denser. She knew that he kept gathering his internal power and feared that, because of his old age, he would not be able to withstand Fawang.

There is only evidence that Huang Rong thought Yideng would lose; there was no evidence that he would be able to hurt Yideng.

[ChanceEncounter]

JLGS did improve the 'external' portion of his arts, mainly he ascended another level in his dragon elephant sutra (to an unprecedented 10th level). So we can take it that his internal and external did, in fact, improve.

[Ren Wo Xing]

JLGS did improve the 'external' portion of his arts, mainly he ascended another level in his dragon elephant sutra (to an unprecedented 10th level). So we can take it that his internal and external did, in fact, improve.

Dragon elephant sutra seemed primarily internal to me; although I think this is arguable, I think this would be rather weak (and unnecessary to the overall soundness of the argument) which is why I didn't add it in.

[ChronoReverse]

No, technique is supremely important in determining frontal attacks. We have ample evidence of this. The Narrator, which you seem to place so much emphasis on, supports this with the first clash between GWM and GJ.

It stated that GWM has "better internal energy AND arm strength" while GJ had "better technique". Thus they ended up equal. If you had MUCH greater internal energy (like the monstrous YTZ and his fluke) then you could do something with it regardless, but even then, if XF had been dueling YTZ alone, do you really think even YTZ could take more than a couple of full smashes from HL28P?

We also see this with YG vs HYS. HYS's palm attack could not match YG's so he had to use a better technique, Mighty Finger Snap, to deal with the attack (equalizing himself).



There was no evidence that YD was losing either if he was still gathering internal energy regardless of what HR thinks. If the distraction from the eagles was enough to give YD and full and immediate edge, the difference between YD and GWM can be only half a level at most.

[Ren Wo Xing]

No, technique is supremely important in determining frontal attacks. We have ample evidence of this. The Narrator, which you seem to place so much emphasis on, supports this with the first clash between GWM and GJ.

The narrator is the voice of the author.

It stated that GWM has "better internal energy AND arm strength" while GJ had "better technique". Thus they ended up equal. If you had MUCH greater internal energy (like the monstrous YTZ and his fluke) then you could do something with it regardless, but even then, if XF had been dueling YTZ alone, do you really think even YTZ could take more than a couple of full smashes from HL28P?

Yes, absolutely. You Tanzhi was totally taking on XF's palm smashes by himself. 100%. Stated by the novel; Murong Fu was just there to keep him from being caught into disadvantageous positions by Xiao Feng. Murong Fu wanted You Tanzhi to be exhausted.

Sad Palms was put on par with XL18Z by Huang Yaoshi, and Zhou Botong was able to repeatedly use Fumoquan against Yang Guo's heavy blows from Sad Palms. This is evidence that Fumoquan is no 'scrub' art, as you seem to think of it as, and that it is fully capable of dealing with powerful blows. Just not the blows of JLGS.

There was no evidence that YD was losing either if he was still gathering internal energy regardless of what HR thinks. If the distraction from the eagles was enough to give YD and full and immediate edge, the difference between YD and GWM can be only half a level at most.

Umm, Huang Rong was also the one who was thinking that he was gathering internal energy, and gathered both from the fact that steam was rising from Yideng's head (a sign that a person is approaching their limits and getting all out; Zhang Wuji took that as a sign that Yin Tianzhen was approaching his limits while fighting the Du monks). So you're saying that her analysis of YD gathering his energy was correct, but that her fear of him losing wasn't? Also, in a battle between experts, the fact that two eagles were launching aerial assaults and ripping at his head isn't just a casual distraction!

A moot point in any event; I do probably agree that the difference between Yideng and JLGS was most likely not much more than half a level or so...but the difference was there. But either way, it doesn't matter, since that has nothing to do with my argument, so future debating on YD vs JLGS, I'll leave to a different thread and ignore for now

[ChronoReverse]

It has everything to do with the argument because it's another point of comparison.

You have remember remember that in a fight, if A beats B and B beats C, that does not mean A will beat C. It's not transitive like that because there's so many other factors in a fight.



ZBT was also unable to take YG's Sad Palm attack and had to jump back while blocking. But it was also stated that he wasn't any inferior to YG, just that he didn't have such power. This alone shows that the Demon Subduing Fists are not at Sad Palm levels (and thus HL18P level).

When his Demon Subduing Fists were showing up earlier in the one armed fight, YG was not yet using Sad Palms. Read the section.

So you're saying that her analysis of YD gathering his energy was correct, but that her fear of him losing wasn't? Also, in a battle between experts, the fact that two eagles were launching aerial assaults and ripping at his head isn't just a casual distraction!

That's the whole point. It's only if they're both at a close level that it can make such a decisive difference.

and feared that, because of his old age, he would not be able to withstand Fawang.

This is why I assert that it wasn't so much HR feared YD would lose out because of power (they were dead even at this point) but that he'd get exhausted because of old age. Thus HR was concerned about stamina. In this there is no question GWM is superior since he's younger.




In the end, despite all the other flaws in the premises, the biggest issue with the assertion of the title is that it's only comparing internal energy.

[Ren Wo Xing]

It has everything to do with the argument because it's another point of comparison.

You have remember remember that in a fight, if A beats B and B beats C, that does not mean A will beat C. It's not transitive like that because there's so many other factors in a fight.

I'm not discussing transitive fighting ability. I'm discussing internal energy, which is transitive; if A has the internal energy greater than B, and B had greater energy then C, then C has greater internal energy than A.

ZBT was also unable to take YG's Sad Palm attack and had to jump back while blocking. But it was also stated that he wasn't any inferior to YG, just that he didn't have such power. This alone shows that the Demon Subduing Fists are not at Sad Palm levels (and thus HL18P level).

When his Demon Subduing Fists were showing up earlier in the one armed fight, YG was not yet using Sad Palms. Read the section.

Correct; he started using Demon Subduing Fist early on. But after Sad Palms, he was still using Demon Subduing Fist, and he had no trouble taking on Yang Guo. YOU read the section. Thanks. . Oh, and in addition, the only reason ZBT jumped back while blocking was because he couldn't keep up with the changes, not because he couldn't take on its power head on. While it was said that he couldn't compete with Yang Guo's attacks palm for palm, he was able to, although his chest tightened; he didn't even try to do so for JLGS. Moreover, although he couldn't take Yang Guo on palm for palm, he had no problems taking him on fist for palm.

Yang Guo was impressed that Zhou was able to block all these profound sudden attacks and called out the next stance, “Watch this next stance: ‘Dragging Mud with Water’ [Tuo Ni Dai Shui].”

Both the old man and the young girl cheered, “Very nice! That sounds very nice!” he shouted.

“Don’t you praise me just yet. Take this one!” Yang Guo countered. His right sleeve flowed like water and his left palm slid out heavily like flowing mud and sand.

Zhou recalled something that his apprentice brother Wong Zhongyang told him about Huang Yaoshi. Huang Yaoshi had a palm technique he invented called the ‘Palms of the Five Elements’, the five elements were contained within the palms. Right now, Yang Guo’s right sleeve was like North’s water and his left palm was like Central’s earth, light and swift along with heavy and fierce. Zhou did not dare delay and immediately used the ‘Vacant Fist’ with his left hand and the ‘Demon Subduing Fist’ with his right; light against light, heavy against heavy. After the two attacks came together, they both shouted and moved back a couple of steps.

[ChronoReverse]

Your own example shows how that's not true.

The Palm YG used in that excerpt was based on a "tricky" move from HYS and thus wasn't a pure power move. Furthermore, ZBT combined Hard and Soft using L/R to counter it. That example doesn't show anything.



And internal energy, isn't quite transitive either. We know that it can be pure, fierce, abundant, unending, poisonous, soft, etc. There's so many factors outside of pure quantity that it's not even close to being directly comparable.

For instance, GJ's internal energy is pure, smooth and orthodox. GWM's is fierce and powerful. So GWM can generate more crushing force with his (like YG) but would that necessarily lose out against a soft application of Vacuum Fist?



Finally Vacuum Fist is definitely not a "deflecting" type technique. It is an internal energy based Intercepting technique.

When it's used and described, it usually goes like this:
Person A sends out powerful attack (say a palm). Person B strikes with Vacuum Fist.
The attacks collide soundlessly. Person A feels something is wrong as the attack seems to have hit nothing.

[pannonian]

It has everything to do with the argument because it's another point of comparison.

You have remember remember that in a fight, if A beats B and B beats C, that does not mean A will beat C. It's not transitive like that because there's so many other factors in a fight.



ZBT was also unable to take YG's Sad Palm attack and had to jump back while blocking. But it was also stated that he wasn't any inferior to YG, just that he didn't have such power. This alone shows that the Demon Subduing Fists are not at Sad Palm levels (and thus HL18P level).

When his Demon Subduing Fists were showing up earlier in the one armed fight, YG was not yet using Sad Palms. Read the section.

He did use Demon Subduing Fists against YG's Sad Palms later on, in the fourth stance that YG showed ZBT, but that doesn't seem to have been one of his more power-oriented stances, with both palm and sleeve described as "flowing".

[Ren Wo Xing]

Your own example shows how that's not true.

The Palm YG used in that excerpt was based on a "tricky" move from HYS and thus wasn't a pure power move. Furthermore, ZBT combined Hard and Soft using L/R to counter it. That example doesn't show anything.

The left hand was a 'light' move, the right hand was a 'power' move; ZBT blocked a light move with another light move, and a power move with another power move.

[Ren Wo Xing]

And internal energy, isn't quite transitive either. We know that it can be pure, fierce, abundant, unending, poisonous, soft, etc. There's so many factors outside of pure quantity that it's not even close to being directly comparable.

The beauty of this comparison is that Guo Jing's internal energy is VERY similar to Zhou Botong's, which is why it is 'transitive'; because JLGS's performance against ZBT's internal energy is the closest possible gauge of his performance against GJ's internal energy.

Finally Vacuum Fist is definitely not a "deflecting" type technique. It is an internal energy based Intercepting technique.

When it's used and described, it usually goes like this:
Person A sends out powerful attack (say a palm). Person B strikes with Vacuum Fist.
The attacks collide soundlessly. Person A feels something is wrong as the attack seems to have hit nothing.

Honestly, I don't really care what type of technique Kongmingquan is; it's a technique which ZBT used when he felt that he could not compete with another person's power/internal energy, which is all that matters, for the purposes of this discussion.

[ChronoReverse]

The left hand was a 'light' move, the right hand was a 'power' move; ZBT blocked a light move with another light move, and a power move with another power move.

Yes, but it's still not a full power blast type move like some of the other blows in Sad Palms. ZBT had the opportunity to counter the other Sad Palms too with purely hard using L/R if required, but elected not to as well.

Demon Subduing Fists can't even be one of the utmost skills in 9 Yin since it doesn't even seem to be that Taoist in nature. Even 9 Yin was about the internal energy after all. It was a compilation of the martial arts HS needed to counter and a collection of martial arts that can neutralize each one. The internal energy was the only part that was ultimate since it was the base. Everything else was ingenious but had relatively specific purposes.



You should care about what Vacuum Fists is. It directly affects your assertion that because ZBT had to use it, therefore he was weaker than GWM. I say that is nonsense considering how Vacuum Fists is used and how it works. It means that ZBT's internal energy couldn't be much far from equal to GWM.

Not that it ultimately matters much since even if GWM had better internal energy than GJ, a HUGE IF, that doesn't make him superior to GJ. He had superior internal energy at the Heros' Meet and was still just par with GJ.

And besides, if GWM cannot defeat ZBT while ZBT cannot defeat GWM, how on earth would that make ZBT inferior?

[Ren Wo Xing]

Yes, but it's still not a full power blast type move like some of the other blows in Sad Palms. ZBT had the opportunity to counter the other Sad Palms too with purely hard using L/R if required, but elected not to as well.

Does it matter if the move was merely a 'power move', as opposed to a 'full power blast'? Zhou Botong used Kongmingquan against EVERY single move of JLGS. Are you saying every move of JLGS was a full power blast type of move?