At the end of ROCH, Jinlun Guoshi was superior to Guo Jing

[ChronoReverse]

Indeed. Here's another quote that shows that:

On the other front Guo Jing fought Qiu Qianren; for a while it would be difficult to decide victory and defeat. After receiving instructions from Reverend Yideng on the internal energy cultivation his level of energy actually increased one layer; to his own surprise by exerting all his strength he was able to protect himself thus far

In fact, GJ gained even more martial arts ability after this when he was captured by OYF and forced to spar for a month. It was after that point when he achieved 70% of a Great level.



Huh. Some more reading yields another unbelievable gem from GJ:

Looking at these ancient twelve rattans with their branches rising up to the sky, suddenly the ‘fei long zai tian’ [dragon flies to the sky] came into Guo Jing’s mind. Following the Nine Yin Manual principles, these twelve rattans formed different stances of the dragon postures, creating twelve grand stances where the move might be executed. From being lost in thought, suddenly he woke up with a start, “I was hoping I could forget the martial art I already learned, how I could think about creating a new move to defeat and to kill others? I have fallen too deep, truly I am incorrigible.”

[goodrick]

Got your attention, didn't it

I'd like to start this off with a comment that I personally don't really 'believe' the argument I am about to make, and I don't think the conclusion was JY's original intent either; however, I think the logic is pretty compelling. I don't think it is ironclad, or unsinkable...but I think the evidence on 'my' side is stronger than the evidence against it. More than anything else, this is an exercise in analysis and logic.

Interested? Watch this post.

THE PREMISES:

Premise #1: Guo Jing's internal energy, at any given point throughout LOCH or ROCH, is always inferior to Zhou Botong. This is because they have the exact same internal energy base; Quanzhen energy, mixed with Jiuyin principles. This is a very powerful combination of internal energy, that is said to grow no matter what, even if you are just sleeping, and that the more internal energy you have, the faster it grows. However, Zhou Botong started out at a higher level than Guo Jing, and we know for a fact that as of the end of LOCH, Guo Jing's internal energy was still lower than Zhou Botong. Therefore, unless Guo Jing practices martial arts and cultivating his internal energy much more than Zhou Botong does (an assertion which has no textual evidence and, in fact, is contrary to their respective characters), Guo Jing's internal energy should thus always be inferior to Zhou Botong's. And, due to the nature of Quanzhen energy, the growth of his internal energy should also always be inferior to Zhou Botong's as well.

Premise #2: Guo Jing was, at the time of the fights he had with Jinlun Guoshi, on par with Jinlun Guoshi. This was stated multiple times by Jinyong, and I think we all know this by now. In their exchanges, it was stated that Jinlun Guoshi was stronger, but Guo Jing's palm technique was exquisited; hundreds of stances would have to be exchanged before any sort of determination of superiority could be made. Now, pay attention, because this is important: At the time of the fight with Jinlun Guoshi, Guo Jing had no problems directly taking on Jinlun Guoshi's powerful blows.

Premise #3: Guo Jing's external martial arts did not improve, or substantially improve, during the 16 year gap. I see this for a simple reason: There is no evidence at all to suggest that he developed any new martial arts, and he himself admitted that his XLSBZ "has not seen action for a number of years", by the time of Guo Xiang's birthday. If he's developed nothing new, and if he hasn't been actively using the old, how much can his external martial arts improve by? Of course, all martial artists improve with time and experience, but there is nothing to indicate Guo Jing's external martial arts improved by much at all (or any more than any other martial artist at his level would).

THE EXTRAPOLATIONS:

Extrapolation #1: Based on the first two premises, if we accept them as correct, we can conclude that at the time of the first Heroes Gathering, where Guo Jing and Jinlun Guoshi fought, Zhou Botong could also directly take on Jinlun Guoshi's powerful blows. If Guo Jing could take on Jinlun Guoshi's palms, and Zhou Botong's internal energy was higher than that of Guo Jing, there is no reason why Zhou Botong could not take on Jinlun Guoshi's palms as well. This is important.

Extrapolation #2: Jinlun Guoshi's internal energy improved more in the 16 years interval than Zhou Botong. Based upon extrapolation #1, Zhou Botong should have been able to directly take on the palm attacks of Jinlun Guoshi, pre-16 years; however, we know for a fact that he did not dare take them on post-16 years, and instead was forced to fight extremely defensively, using his Vacant Fist, Kongmingquan to deflect Jinlun Guoshi's awesome power. If Zhou Botong should have been able to take his power head-on pre-16 years, but is not able to take it on post-16 years, then we know for a fact that Jinlun Guoshi's improvement in internal energy was considerably greater than that of Zhou Botong.

Extrapolation #3: If we accept extrapolation #2 to make sense, then based upon extrapolation #2 and premise #1, Jinlun Guoshi's internal energy therefore also improved more than that of Guo Jing in those 16 years. We know that Zhou Botong has more internal energy than Guo Jing; we also know that Guo Jing's internal energy should not grow faster than Zhou Botong (or at least, there is not a shred of textual support for this). Therefore, logically speaking, Jinlun Guoshi's internal energy growth should be more pronounced than his.

Extrapolation #4: If we accept premise #3 to be correct, then post-16 years, the ratio-level of Jinlun Guoshi's external martial arts, compared to the level of Guo Jing's external martial arts, should be no worse than it was pre-16 years; there's not much evidence that Guo Jing's external martial arts improved much, and although there is a little evidence which Jinlun Guoshi's may have improved (witness the new martial arts he passed down to Da'erba), there also isn't enough to show a substantial change, much like Guo Jing. So we'll call their external martial arts a wash, ratio-wise.

THE CONCLUSION:

If we accept the above to be correct, then this means that the relative level of internal energy of Guo Jing and Jinlun Guoshi post-16 years is now more in Jinlun Guoshi's favor, whereas their relative external martial arts remains the same. This, then, would indicate that Jinlun Guoshi, who was previously only on par with Guo Jing, has now surpassed him.

The only thing proved is that Jin Yong's writing and portrayal of kung fu skills is inconsistent and there are a lot of flaws

[Ahoxan]

The only thing proved is that Jin Yong's writing and portrayal of kung fu skills is inconsistent and there are a lot of flaws

I agree that Jin-Yong is inconsistent in his writings.

His description of Yang Guo's internal strength varies all the time. One moment Yang Guo has deep internal energy, the next it is not profound enough to take on a 1st class fighter. One chapter he has Yang Guo as skillful with exquisite command of stances but without the base to take on 1st class fighters, then he proceeds to write that Yang Guo defeats two eight-bag first class beggar-clan elders easily with his lightness skills and Quan-Zhen sword skills (which he hasn't truly mastered).

Jin-Yong's description of Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu's age varies by 2-4 years depending on the passages. Yang Guo spent a little more than 3 years with Xiao Longnu before being being separated from her. Including his ~6 months at Quan-Zhen and around the same length of time after getting separated from her, that would make it around 4 years after his arrival at Quan-Zhen at the time of her 18th birthday when he met her again at the Wu manor during the selection of the Wu-Lin Chancellor... yet he describes Xiao Longnu as a 20 years old girl who looks around 16-17.

In terms of internal strength cultivation, a year on the Ice-Jade bed is equivalent to 10 years normal cultivation. Xiao Longnu had 3+ years alone on the bed between the time her master died and when she gave the bed to Yang Guo. She had the equivalent to around 40 years worth of cultivation, yet Jin-Yong kept stating that her internal strength is inferior to the Scarlet Deity because of her youth...


LOL...
Sorry about my rant... and that this may not be the correct thread for it.
Just a couple of things that have bothered me for a long time... and the comment about Jin-Yong writing inconsistencies just triggered it off.

[goodrick]

I agree that Jin-Yong is inconsistent in his writings.

LOL...
Sorry about my rant... and that this may not be the correct thread for it.
Just a couple of things that have bothered me for a long time... and the comment about Jin-Yong writing inconsistencies just triggered it off.

Don't be sorry. You are right on the money. Jin Yong's writing is highly inconsistent and it may not be correct to make conclusions like the ones made by the original poster.

[VIP20000]

18dragon is the most powerful exterior martial arts don't forget that too and besides just because a can beat b and b can beat c doesn't mean a can beat c

[PJ]

In terms of internal strength cultivation, a year on the Ice-Jade bed is equivalent to 10 years normal cultivation. Xiao Longnu had 3+ years alone on the bed between the time her master died and when she gave the bed to Yang Guo. She had the equivalent to around 40 years worth of cultivation, yet Jin-Yong kept stating that her internal strength is inferior to the Scarlet Deity because of her youth...

I can agree with this one, I always frowned upon the idea that Xiao "ICE BED SLEEPER" Longnu would somehow have low internal energy. Just doesn't seem to add up after all the hype about the ice bed.

p.s. Here's some creative fun with Xuzhu, Dragon Elephant Prajna, and the Ice Bed: http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...bed#post744432

[Xiao Feng]

I can agree with this one, I always frowned upon the idea that Xiao "ICE BED SLEEPER" Longnu would somehow have low internal energy. Just doesn't seem to add up after all the hype about the ice bed.

p.s. Here's some creative fun with Xuzhu, Dragon Elephant Prajna, and the Ice Bed: http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...bed#post744432

LoL, that thread is ridiculous.

On a slightly more serious note, I don't think you can mix cultivate Buddhist based internal and Taoist based internal.

[forgot password]

in fact you can, dont forget the nameless monk in yttlj created the 9 yang zhen jing by mixing the 9 yin zhen jing of taoism with his own understanding of buddhism.

[Ken Cheng]

I can agree with this one, I always frowned upon the idea that Xiao "ICE BED SLEEPER" Longnu would somehow have low internal energy. Just doesn't seem to add up after all the hype about the ice bed.

That's just it, though. It was all hype. The icy bed had its uses, but it was nowhere *near* as awesome as Lam Chiu Ying claimed it was. That was just her propaganda.

Lam Chiu Ying's propaganda was no less potent than her martial arts.

[Xiao Feng]

in fact you can, dont forget the nameless monk in yttlj created the 9 yang zhen jing by mixing the 9 yin zhen jing of taoism with his own understanding of buddhism.

Haha, thank you 3rd edition!

I believe there's also proof otherwise.

SM, warned JMZ about him mix mashing the Taoist based XWXG with Buddhist based Shaolin 72 supreme arts.

[forgot password]

not really, iirc, in the 2nd edn, Supermonk only alerted jmz to the dangers of using xiaoyao energy to execute the 72 shaolin advanced martial arts without understanding them down to the very smallest details, and of practicing shao lin martial arts without having a pure and merciful heart, which means it was possible for the 72 shao lin arts to be safely powered by xiao wu xiang gong energy. further, i think jmz's energy was not refined enough to enable him to practice the xiao wu xiang gong and yi jin jing at the same time. if it had been zhang san feng in this case, he would probably have got no problem in mastering the ultimate internal techniques of both taoism and buddhism.

[Athena]

Jiuyang in edition 3 is still Taoist based. That creator just believed that Jiuyin was too Yin-based, which was true in a certain sense. The Chinese part of Jiuyin was indeed about utilizing Yin in martial arts to counter Yang. However, the Sanskrit part of Jiuyin (the core qi cultivation part) was all about a harmony between Yin and Yang. (sources chapter 31/LOCH, chapter 16/HSDS)

The Jiuyang creator didn't understand the Sanskrit part and therefore he believed Jiuyin was just Yin. He believes that the his own work would be more harmonious than Jiuyin. Unfortunately, Jiuyang turned out to be more on the Yang side. Xie Xun commented on that aspect in chapter 30 of HSDS. There is a subtle hint in chapter 2 of HSDS that the creator may not have mastered, researched Jiuyang fully himself.


I used the third edition as my sources.

P.S. Actually in the Song dynasty (especially Southern Song) a lot of philosophers were first Confucians and later explored Taoism and/or Buddhism. So, this Jiuyang creator isn't really an exceptional case when it comes to having explored multiple religions.

[person135]

There is a subtle hint in chapter 2 of HSDS that the creator may not have mastered, researched Jiuyang fully himself.

in that case ZWJ mastered 2 martial arts that the creators never mastered lol

[Western Eccentric]

THE EXTRAPOLATIONS:

Extrapolation #1: Based on the first two premises, if we accept them as correct, we can conclude that at the time of the first Heroes Gathering, where Guo Jing and Jinlun Guoshi fought, Zhou Botong could also directly take on Jinlun Guoshi's powerful blows. If Guo Jing could take on Jinlun Guoshi's palms, and Zhou Botong's internal energy was higher than that of Guo Jing, there is no reason why Zhou Botong could not take on Jinlun Guoshi's palms as well. This is important.

....

Yes he did y'know 🤭🤭🤭🤭

Fawang said, “Hand the banner back to me and then come back later tonight to steal it again while I’ll guard it. No matter what method you use, if you are able to steal it again, I’ll give my respects to you as a great hero.”

Zhou Botong could never resist challenges and the harder it was, the greater the urge to do it. He immediately shot the flag back to Fawang and said, “Catch, I’ll be back for it tonight.”

Fawang stretched out his hand and caught the flag pole only to realize the great force behind the throw, he quickly circulated his internal energy to resist but in the end, he still had to take two steps back before he steadied himself.